BIRD WILLIAMS: You're listening to Bird Means Business Episode 77. 

Hello there and thank you for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. I am your host, Bird Williams. And we have such a fun guest on today's show. The one and only Steven Boyd Wallace. This guy. What can I say? I don't know anyone like him. And you're gonna know exactly what I mean when you listen to this episode. 

I first met Steve at The League. That is the warehouse gym that my husband, Terry and I own here in Houston. And Steve and his wife, Ally, would come and work out with us. And we've really been friends ever since. Even though they left us for the west coast, which broke our hearts. We still love them. Ally has actually been on Bird Means Business podcast before as well. So she was in Episode 66. And she talks all about her entrepreneurial journey as an artist. And y'all, it is really such a great episode on so many levels. So you definitely want to make sure that you go back and check that one out. 

But back to Steve. I don't think he'd mind me promoting his wife's episode on his episode. So let me tell you about Steve. He is an actor, and the host of Hardly Tomorrow, which is a podcast about mental health, entertainment, sports, politics, and more. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife, Ally, and their adorable dog Finn. Now given that May is mental health awareness month, I wanted to have Steve, a small business owner just like you and me on the show to have a very candid conversation about his mental health journey. And even how that looked when he had to navigate closing down one of his past businesses. My hope is that anyone else out there who may be going through something similar can know that they are not alone, can gain some tools to really help them navigate the process, and ultimately just get inspired to keep moving forward. So let's dive in. 

Steve, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm so excited to have you here.

STEVEN WALLACE: I'm excited to be here. It's good to see your face.

BIRD: It's good to see your face and to hear your voice. And I've already kind of intro'd how fun and wild you are. And ...

STEVEN: Wild? Whoa! Okay. 

BIRD: Yeah. I just love your energy. And I'm really excited to have you here.

STEVEN: You love my energy? 

BIRD: I do. Absolutely. 

STEVEN: Okay, that's a good word of affirmation. Because as someone who's constantly depressed, I definitely appreciate that.

BIRD: You know, and it's interesting you say that, because it's shocking to me, honestly. But then I get it too, given what I've gone through when I experienced postpartum anxiety and didn't even really know to call it that. I know I seemed very functioning to a lot of people. Except for my husband, who was like, we should definitely go see someone. But I say all that to say... 

STEVEN: Yo, girl. You're sad.

BIRD: Yeah. He's like, "Um I'm the happiest person alive. But you know, we need to get real about what's going on with you."  

STEVEN: He is. It's very annoying to me. 

BIRD: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot sometimes. 

STEVEN: How can one human be so damn optimistic? I mean, honestly,

BIRD: That being said, he too, last year dealt with his own bout with.

STEVEN: I know. I don't want to say that I'm glad he went through that. Because that sounds evil. People probably think I'm an asshole. I'm already making fun of depression. I'm glad that your husband was depressed. Like, no, you know what? When you've gone through it, it's like, then you have the right to be able to joke about it. You know what I'm saying?

BIRD: Yeah, it is real. It's real. 

STEVEN: I've earned the right to like joke about it. At least I think. I tell myself that.

BIRD: I think so. And I think sometimes maybe it's okay to be light-hearted about it. And when it was Terry, again, given that he's so positive. It was just a real, like, whoa. Even though I'd gone through it, it looked a lot different. It was anxiety and not so much depression. It's interesting. So it's something we gotta talk about. And I'm glad that we're gonna be talking about it today. 

STEVEN: Oh, it definitely helps. You have to be able to talk about it in the most just like point-blank, real kind of way. The first thing. Have you ever had to go to a psychiatrist or worked with one? 

BIRD: Not a psychiatrist. 

STEVEN: Just a therapist? 

BIRD: Yep, just a therapist. 

STEVEN: Okay. Well, they're similar, of course. But like with a psychiatrist, I meet with mine, not nearly as regularly. I have a hard time speaking. So when I stutter, and when I struggle with words. I had speech impediments for like six years growing up, and they still come out to haunt me. So why the hell did I get into doing a podcast and want to act when I can't talk very well? I don't know. It's like "The King's Speech", but in real life. So anyways. Psychiatrists. One of the first things they'll ask you, literally, like, one of the first questions is, are you having suicidal thoughts? Like, are you struggling? And they'll just ask you. They're not weird about it. They don't kind of come in slowly. It's like, "Okay, are you struggling with suicide?" You know, it's like, no. You have to just ask it and be able to talk about it point-blank because it could save your life? Because the answer is probably yes. And if you had those thoughts last week, or last night, or whatever it was. You need somebody to pull that out of you, and then talk about it in a way that strips and takes the fear away. Instead of it being this dark, hidden thing in the back of just your mind. You need to let somebody else in there to maybe help reveal the lies or the truth that's there, too. You know what I'm saying? So it's interesting, to like, when you go. And they're just like, "Hey, did you think about killing yourself yesterday?" And you're like, Oh, yeah. It's weird. And it's hard. And it's scary. And it's kind of sad. But it is the most helpful. 

BIRD: Yeah. When in your journey, did you get to a place? Or I guess, When was the first time that was ever asked of you? Was it in a session like that? Or, you know, when did you get to a place where you could kind of put words to it? And that's just for anyone who's listening who might be like, I'm in that place, and I have no one to talk to you about it. I don't know how to navigate this. I don't know how to even grapple with my own thoughts around it. How did that look?

STEVEN: I have struggled with mental health issues or mental illness for honestly, as long as I can remember it. And looking back too it's weird to be almost like past diagnosed. You tell people things that you talk with your therapist or doctor about. Things or the way you were growing up, or things that happened in your childhood or whatever. And it's like, oh, yeah, I was already there. Or I was already struggling with something. I just hadn't been diagnosed or hadn't worked with people or I didn't have a mental health team. Whatever it was. Wait, what did you ask me? 

BIRD: Oh, I was just asking, given that you've always experienced it kind of. 

STEVEN: Oh, when was the first time somebody asked me about suicide?

BIRD: Yeah, that you spoke to it even?

STEVEN: The first time anyone ever asked me that was a psychiatrist in high school. And I think I lied to them. I don't think I told them 'yes' to the suicide question. Even though I probably should have. And I think part of that, especially going back, is because of my very Christian upbringing. In that day and age even just... Well, how old am I? I'm 32. So that would have been like 15 some odd years ago. That was a no-no.

BIRD: Right.

STEVEN: You don't need pills. You're not praying enough. You're not reading the Bible enough. Something's wrong with your commitment to God. Right? It's not oh, hmm. Okay, so God created this person. Who then grew up to be a doctor. Who then helped create this medicine that can actually help save your life. That's not the answer. The answer is just you need to have more faith, you know? Because he can literally move mountains. So the Rocky Mountains could go from North America, over to Australia, if you just believed. And so, yeah, I was ashamed. And there was so much guilt and baggage there because I was like, oh, I can't say that I thought about killing myself in high school because that means I'm not a real Christian, you know? Or that means I don't actually believe in God. Or that means because the ultra-conservative side of things is that suicide means you're going to hell, because it's sin, or it's selfish. Like all these things. And they're all just lies. They're all just people who don't or stories who don't know what it's actually like. They either haven't dealt with it themselves. They don't know someone who's dealt with it. They just literally don't know enough of the facts about mental health and mental illness. And so there's just so many stigmas and misconceptions. We've come a long way from you and I growing up. You know, like, there's been a ton of progress, which is great. There's still a long way to go though. And so, we keep fighting.

BIRD: So what was that process like for you then? When did you feel? Was it in your adult life where you begin to feel like okay, I can go and get help and kind of have that mental health team and all that?

STEVEN: In high school, I got set up with a Christian counselor. And the main reason for that was because my family had just blew up. And it was like I clearly needed help for that. And that was okay. That like kind of helped. But I wouldn't say I ever had like a team, so to speak, that you just described until now. Until the last couple of years, when I have like a consistent therapist and a consistent psychiatrist, who also talk together. They talk behind my back, you know. So my therapist will tell the psychiatrist, just in a nutshell, like how I'm actually doing, give her key information to help. Because it's all in an effort to help also set me up with the right medication, because there's so many different ones out there, and it can take a long time to figure out the one that you need. That's honestly the most daunting and hardest part about getting help is if you need, not everyone needs medication. Some people do, and some people don't. But if you do, starting that path is extremely hard, because it can take months, if not years, literally to find the right cocktail, if you will, for your brain, your person. That's a thing that people say, right? On your person. That's something Dwight Schrute would say. Your person.

BIRD: My favorite “The Office” character. 

Let's talk about your podcast real quick. Hardly Tomorrow. Let's share about that. Because I love how candid it is. I love how you show up there. And I'm sure anyone listening to this episode will catch that and might want more of that. So tell me a little bit about Hardly Tomorrow.

STEVEN: So Hardly Tomorrow. The name came to me, at this point, probably a little over a year ago. Yeah. I was journaling one. One morning a week, I was journaling. I was in my own thoughts. And I had been in a very dark place at the time, struggling with both depression and anxiety. Maybe you've heard the saying that depression can sometimes be past-focused. And anxiety can be future-focused. And what you want to be is present right there in the current moment in time. And those two things, pull and tug you backwards, forwards. And it's terrible, especially when they're happening at the same time because there's no balance. And so Hardly Tomorrow. I was just like writing. And I was like, it's hardly tomorrow. Like, I don't need to worry about the future. I don't need to worry about what happened in the past. All I have is today. I'm here. I have people who love me. I have people who I love back. I'm okay, right now. Like, that's it. And then it was just like stuck in my brain. Right? Like it was it's hardly tomorrow. Hardly tomorrow. I was like, okay, what is that phrase? Is it just for me? Is it helpful just for me? Do I need to get a tattoo? Like, what? What is it? You know? And I've wanted to have a podcast for probably years. I just didn't know what the right, I just didn't know how to make it mine and how to make it different. Or if the world even needed another podcast from a straight white guy, which they probably don't. And, you know, and so I hadn't ever done anything. And just the idea wasn't fully formed in my head. And then the more I sat and thought on this, like, it started to make more sense to me that that's what this was supposed to be, or at least how it was supposed to start. Like, a place for being in the present moment with somebody else. A place for healing, for learning, unlearning, to laugh, to feel whatever it might be. And then of course, like I'm someone who, I'm very into entertainment. I love sports and politics and business. Like all types of things. So I was like, okay, well, I don't want to just have. I mean, you're way smarter than me. And that's why you made a niche podcast or a focused podcast that's just about business. Mine is all over the place. So I, but you know, mental health. I've got some, what do you call them? Pillars? Themes? I've got some main pillars. But then we kind of bounce around. But really, it started to make more sense to me that this was it. This was the podcast idea. And it could be a place for other people to share and tell their stories. And like you said, to be hopefully vulnerable, and that that could be something that helps others. I also love products and I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I've had product businesses in the past. And I also loved the potential for products with Hardly Tomorrow, like down the road or whatever. And then using, strictly business speaking, my audience to then sell them products. And I thought Hardly Tomorrow had just a lot of potential there for stuff. So I thought it worked that way too.

BIRD: I love it! I want to make sure those listening know. I'll add a link in the show notes to the Hardly Tomorrow podcast. 

STEVEN: It's easy. Just hardlytomorrow.com. Or @hardlytomorrow on Instagram. You can find it there. Or Hardly Tomorrow on Spotify. Apple.

BIRD: Yes. So good. And if you want that conversation with so much fun and humor and different perspectives. It's a lot of fun. I've maybe been on it before. 

STEVEN: I was gonna say you should just send people to Episode 3. Right? That was yours.

BIRD: Yeah, I'll link the episode too. I think I maybe give God a name, a female name? Pretty sure that happened?

STEVEN: Oh, yeah. Yes. Christiana? Right. 

BIRD: Christiana. 

STEVEN: I mean, that was pretty. That was pretty clutch on your feet. Christiana? 

BIRD: If you want to hear that sort of story, definitely gotta check it out.

STEVEN: Did you read that book, “The Shack”?

BIRD: I know what you're talking about. It was when we were in high school, the big book. But I don't think I ever read it. No. 

STEVEN: And then it got made into a movie maybe like six years ago or something. Five or six years ago. But remember how controversial that is? Because it was like in the book, God is a woman and the Trinity. The Holy Spirit was I think an Asian woman. 

BIRD: Oh, really? 

STEVEN: God was a Black woman. And then Jesus was, Jesus was still a dude. I think he was like a white hipster. So you know, Americans could still somewhat buy into it, because Jesus is clearly a white State Farm agent, you know, named Brad.

BIRD: I love it. No, I want to talk though, about that product based business and really just your entrepreneurial story. So here you are today with Hardly Tomorrow podcast. And you have plans for it in the future, in terms of having more products. But kind of talk about your first business. Was Kintigo your first business?

STEVEN: You want me to go back to mowing lawns in high school? Like how far back do you want to go?

BIRD: Well, I mean. Just in general, the general rub. But I would really love to talk about Kintigo specifically because it was a business that you had to close. And I know that a lot of entrepreneurs out there... 

STEVEN: Wow, thanks for bringing up my failures, Bird.

BIRD: Oh, well, this is the angle though. It's like I think a lot of entrepreneurs wonder about that. What that looks like. Or entrepreneurs to be, you know, have that as what if? And so to kind of hear your perspective, I think it'd be so helpful, don't you think?

STEVEN: Oh, 100%. Just messing with you. I also think it's funny. Where are you on this whole boat of like, I didn't fail, I learned? I didn't fail. I learned. There's no failing. There's just learning. That's probably Terry, right? Because he's so positive. But also, we have to be honest with ourselves in order to grow and learn. If I don't say that business failed, then I'm lying to myself. Technically it failed. I did learn. Both things can be true. But we have to stop pretending some things don't work. And some things do. That's just the truth. You know?

BIRD: I cannot agree more. To answer your question, That's exactly what I was gonna say is that both can be true. Yes, I have failed again and again. I remember a friend of mine, her mother once we were hanging out and I said, Oh, yeah, I failed this, right? That was a fail, whatever. And she looked at me like you have not failed and she was so upset. And I remember thinking, gosh, if I could never fail, then I mean, that's a huge ...

STEVEN: We have to be able to fail and move and learn from it and move on. There is no learning if you can't even first say that you failed, right? And the problem is people think that by saying you failed, that you're calling yourself or somebody else a failure. That's different. That's not what you're saying. You're not a failure because something failed. The thing that didn't work, maybe a failure, that business is a failure. But that's not you. You know? It's not you. It's not your identity. It's not all that matters. I just think that like, yeah, if we're gonna nitpick the words, it is what it is. But I would much prefer to say that something did fail, and just call a spade a spade, than try and act like something didn't happen. Anyways, should I talk about that thing?

BIRD: Well the thing is too, like, there's something to what you do with the failure. So if your business had failed, and you said, I'm never going to launch another business. I'm done. I'm out. Peace. And gave up. Then that's, in my opinion, much more of a failure than you saying, "What can I pull from that experience? How can I do things different with this next product?" This is going back to the whole learning concept. So it's kind of like, what do you do with the failure? 

STEVEN: Well, it's also literally impossible, right? If you never failed, then those businesses are still existing, doing something somewhere. They didn't end. That's not true. You're not doing it anymore.

STEVEN: Also, you know, it's kind of helpful. I'm assuming you like "Shark Tank", right? Just because, okay. So Mr. Wonderful loves to say like, "It's time to take this puppy out to the shed and shoot it." I mean, that's pretty graphic, right? But it's like "Old Yeller" style. So you've got a dog with rabies. And sometimes you do. Sometimes your business is just not working. It's just not working. And knowing when to stop is just as important as knowing when to go. I think. Like, you learn a lot about that. "Shoe Dog", the Nike founder's book. He talks in that book a lot about knowing when he had to say no to certain things. And letting go of things was just as important in his, and in the growth of Nike, as it was as starting it. And I just thought that was so huge. And so key. Because the moment you can actually let go of something is the moment that you can maybe allow something else to grow or be born. Because it's hard to do more than one thing at one time. At least well. 

BIRD: 1,000%! Yes. 

STEVEN: Um, but back to my story. So let's get to Kintigo. But before that, I mowed lawns in high school. Boom. Done. Then let's skip ahead. So my first thing out of college, I was a summer camp director. And I know, God, so typical. Texas high school. A Christian. That's just what happened. It's just what happened, you know. So anyways, I created this event that was basically like a hybrid concert conference thing all rolled into one night. Like a band would play for an hour. Then a speaker would come up. And the entire point of it was to help raise money for kids who couldn't afford to go to college. And we would like send them for free on scholarships. So like, I sold tickets. I sold merch and all that. And that was like my first thing at ... that wasn't a business, obviously. But it was just my first kind of taste at businessy stuff and creating something. And I was like, ooh, I like this. And I was good at this. And it was fun. And that was like my first little taste. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't like a teeny weensy bit influenced by like the Blake Mycoskie's of the world.  which is just, looking back, I'm like, damn it. I hate that that's true. But it is true. The TOMS guy. But like what white hipster from Texas, who was a little bit interested in business, and also wanted to do some good, like wasn't idolizing Blake Mycoskie? Like everybody was. 

Now I think that's all wrong, flash forwarding and the things I've learned. Not idolizing him specifically. But TOMS, of course, for the mission was what moved the product. Right? It was all about helping give shoes to kids in need, right? And they would like airdrop these cheap ass TOMS shoes in Africa or something. So that was kind of before Kintigo. I was doing something similar, but the like mission was moving the product. And I think that's all wrong and backwards now, personally. I think the product has to be the mission in and of itself. So we've all seen it, right? There's a million different if we're talking just apparel, specifically too. There's a million different t-shirt brands on Instagram that you can go find right now that have shit designs. They're cheap t-shirts. But they're saying they're doing good for some nonprofit or whatever in the world. I hate that. I hate that so much. What matters more? You selling a cheap-ass bad product, but then giving some teensy little percentage away to a nonprofit? Or you actually caring enough about the product you're making itself. Maybe it's a sustainability factor in the way you're actually making the products. Maybe it's the people you're employing who are making the products and you're working with, I don't know, an American manufacturer, and you're giving them fair wages. Or I have a friend who is helping employ women on skid row here in Los Angeles out of homelessness. So that is to me, far more important than having some random kind of side mission. And then you just sell stuff, random stuff, to try and make money for that side mission. I think that it has to be woven into the same thing. And sometimes that line is a little blurry. But it's kind of like what's the saying about porn? It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

BIRD: I've never heard that saying. But I can see how that makes sense.

STEVEN: Yeah, you know it when you see it, right? Like, you know when you see it. That's how I feel on Instagram when you come across this random small company that's just telling you they're doing x, y, and z good things. But then you look at their stuff and you're like, but what is this actual product? Like, is it even good or whatever. But that's what I was kind of doing. The first thing. And I quit. And after like months of that, I rebranded and turned that clothing and apparel brand into Kintigo. And then was focused on just making good things. And that my mission kind of changed. And I was working with small-batch manufacturers. I knew the factories. I knew the people who were making my clothes, or my candles, or my leather goods. So that's where I changed. But Kintigo's honestly, it was a little bit too little too late. A rebrand is a very risky and hard thing to do. Because the bulk of my people already knew that business as one thing. And if they really liked that one thing, it can be ... People are resistant to change, they just are. Especially within business. Like if Apple rebranded as Orange, next month. They might lose half their customers to Samsung, you know, just because. That was a weird example. But now I'm just trying to picture Orange. I kind of love some of the branding stuff you can do with that. It's one of my favorite colors. It was a little bit too little too late. We, one of the main reasons it failed, honestly, I just wasn't doing ... I had a very loyal small customer base, but I wasn't growing near fast enough. And it just got to almost the two-year point. I think that that's enough time to know if something's going to actually work or catch on. It might actually be too long to a degree. And for me that was kind of like, it was getting to the point of, okay, like I need to know when to say no, or let go of this. Because it's just not working. And sometimes things just don't work. And there's not even always an answer. Because a lot of what I was doing is like it doesn't make sense that this isn't working or growing quicker, is how I felt about it. And we moved from Texas to Los Angeles. And in Texas, we had a garage, because real estate's so much cheaper there. So we were renting a home. We had a garage. All my inventory was in our garage. I could do it all from my home to save money. I didn't need a fulfillment partner, whatever. Then moving out to Los Angeles, I was gonna outsource the fulfillment side of things. So I sent literally all my products to this place that was going to do the fulfillment, right? Like, send the orders, manage the returns, all of that. Which is awesome, because it was going to free up so much of my time. They lost 85% of my inventory. Did you not know this part?

BIRD: I did not know this part.

STEVEN: So literally, it showed up at their warehouse and then got lost. 

BIRD: Wow!

STEVEN: They just literally lost it somehow. I have no idea how that happens either. But that's what happened. So Ally and I are in the midst of the hardest, most stressful thing. One of the hardest, most stressful things you can do, which is move across the country, you know. And leave all your friends and family. And especially going from like a cheap state to a really expensive one. Everything about it was just hard. And on top of that, we're towing a car, right? And I'm getting emails that like they don't have my stuff. And so I'm like, panicking. I'm like I was in the middle of trying to launch this new line. And then I had to delay that new collection by like a month and a half. They ended up finding, I don't know, maybe 10% of that line. And then long story short, that issue didn't 100% kill the business. But it like 95% killed it because that was just too much money I lost, them losing my stuff. I couldn't. I didn't have the money to just make it all again. And you can't get that time back, right? Like I had just, I'd spent probably like a month building hype and advertising for this new collection. And then I had to delay it a month. And then most of it was gone anyways. And for a small business that was just kind of like, you know, what's the saying? The fork in the steak? That's definitely not the saying. That's not it. I don't know what it is. But it was like the end times. And I had to make the hard decision. Like, am I gonna really put more of my own money into this thing that wasn't already working? Because Ally and I had talked about it and it was like, Okay, this is kind of my last-ditch effort. This collection is gonna go really well and springboard me into new growth and we're gonna be off and running. Or not. And then it's like I've got my answer. And then all that happened. And I was like, Oh, I've got my answer. So it was just time. It was time. It felt, I knew it. I had been feeling it for probably six months that it was time and not working. And then I couldn't have gotten a more clear answer that I wasn't supposed to be doing that anymore, for myself. And so yeah, I closed it up. You know, the worst part about closing that was? The minute I announced, it’s ending, being like, we're having a closeout sale. If you want something buy it now, or I'm literally just going to take it to Goodwill in a month or whatever I did. That last month, I did more revenue than I had done in the previous like 14 months.

BIRD: What?

STEVEN: That was the hardest, honestly, saddest.

BIRD: Why do you think that was?

STEVEN: I think. I'm not exactly sure. But people love to support you when like. It was just so weird. It's like, nothing's changed. I've been speaking to these same people like, hey, I'm a small business, support it, whatever, before you knew it was gonna close. And then to have all these people come out of the woodwork. I mean, I'm glad because it allowed me to pay off a mini loan, and it made the financial impact of it, like not really a thing. Whereas had that month gone terribly, I would have, honestly, I would have lost way more money on it. 

BIRD: Yeah. 

STEVEN: That was the hard part. I was like, why are you supporting me now? I just said this thing's ending. It's like, I'm glad. Yes, give me your money so this can be a little bit easier to swallow. But also like, where were you last month?

BIRD: Yeah. I wonder if there's something to that urgency, right? Because you had a loyal, a small, but loyal customer base. These people will love you. But it's like, maybe I'll get a candle. Maybe I won't. But whenever you're like, oh, it's shutting down, so I'm gonna get... I know, we got more stuff whenever you announced that too. So that's interesting, just in terms of how do we create urgency. 

STEVEN: 100% 

You know what would be a brilliant idea? You and I should just create one business that people don't know about. But really what it is, is just then we create many fake brands that are going out of business every other month. We could probably make bank. People love to support a business that's dying.

BIRD: You may have heard of this and I heard of it, during the pandemic. I can't remember the company. But they sell something and I'm going to be so mad. I'll figure it out later. But it's just limited supply. Limited inventory. So every time they do a collection or release, it's like that's it. And they sell out within hours or something.

STEVEN: I mean, a lot of hypebeasty apparel brands do that, you know. I'm hoping once I have more to work with and a bigger audience, I'm actually hoping to do that strategy with Hardly Tomorrow products. I'm going to make a small collection of stuff. And when we run out, we run out. Like I'm not just going to keep restocking the same product. So I think that's kind of what you're talking about. I think that is a really smart, at least speaking in terms of apparel and accessories. I think that's a really smart business model. That may not work or may not even make sense for everything, you know, like a mattress company or something. I think it works really well with like shirts, hats, accessories, that sort of thing. 

You've called me or talked about entrepreneurial. And it's funny, I don't, I guess I kind of am. I think of myself more entrepreneurial than like an actual entrepreneur. I don't even know if there's a difference or makes sense. But you get what I'm saying? 

BIRD: Well, it's funny. I've heard that before. I've heard someone say I don't identify as an entrepreneur. But for them, it was a little bit different. It was more like limiting mindsets. And I've had this 9 to 5, and I just can't think of myself outside of being an employee. But I have never heard, "I do consider myself entrepreneurial, but not as an entrepreneur." 

STEVEN: Well, let's be honest. Social media ruined entrepreneurs. Because now anyone can be an entrepreneur. It's like hashtag entrepreneur, and it's a selfie of you in front of a Ferrari and you don't even own the fucking car. There are those douchebag entrepreneurs all over Instagram. Can I cuss on this? Are you gonna bleep me out? 

BIRD: Oh, I literally have a note that says make sure I put the swearing button on the thing. Cause I don't normally cuss. And so, don't you like have to notify them that ...?  We're good. We're good.

STEVEN:  Explicit. I guess I'm more of an entrepreneur than all those chicks out there who started their own business by selling Rodan and Fields. It kills me every time. Please tell me. Please tell me that kills you, too. Like, no. You didn't start a business. You're a sales rep for this skincare brand. I'm sorry. It kills me every time. It's so annoying and funny to me all the same time.

BIRD: That's a very interesting topic. And I agree that you know, what I call entrepreneur is different from what some other people call entrepreneur, right? The #CEO, # boss. Like, it's cool. But like when you think of it that way, it's like, I don't know. I feel like we're kind of on different thinking about it.

STEVEN:  Don't call yourself a CEO until you have at least nine employees. I'm talking a double-digit, 10 person business. Sure, if you're the 10th, then call yourself a CEO. I don't care. Nobody cares. Like, shut up. Nobody cares. You're not the CEO of your own thing.

BIRD: Right. The bigger question is like, why? Why do you need that? Like, what is it? Because like, to your point, you're like, I want to sell quality products. I want to know the manufacturers. I want to know what's going on behind the scenes.

STEVEN: I think people are buying too much into the fake-it-till-you-make-it. They're trying to put off this aura of I'm running this big or successful company, which you might not be. 

BIRD: Right. And that's okay. 

STEVEN: But it's also okay. People want to support you for where you are. You know and follow your journey. And most of you, most of us, me included. Like, I'm not a CEO. Yeah, I have a business. And like, Ally and I are equal partners. If anything, she's the CEO, let's be honest. But you get what I'm saying?

BIRD: Yeah, and it's a difference between like, like, for example, on your operating agreement, I'm pretty sure you have to put some kind of title. And you know, whether you put CEO or COO. Or whatever.

STEVEN: It just says partner.

BIRD: Yours just says partner. Terry's really into the fun names, like, you know, 

STEVEN: Oh, he would be. He's chief joy officer or something?

BIRD: Exactly. Which is cool. So I mean, that's one thing. But then it's like, how do you actually operate? What do you actually do? When I think of entrepreneurs, I'm definitely thinking of, you're able to own the branding, you know, direct all the things, you know. Not so much the sales reps kind of situation. 

STEVEN: Well I mean, it's just, okay. You have to actually file an LLC. You have to actually do.  There has to be something there, you know, that's yours. That's your money is behind. Like, I don't know. It's just hilarious to me when people on Facebook or whatever, say that. It gets me every time.

BIRD: I can see how that term entrepreneur can definitely be interesting. But I want to know when you did have to go through that process of closing Kintigo. And not even just through that process. But afterward, and in terms of launching Hardly Tomorrow and kind of, you know, mustering up the courage to do it again.

STEVEN: Oh it's so hard. 

BIRD: I imagine. Like there had to be some mindset shifts. Talk to me about that. Because I'm sure there's someone out there who has had a failed business. I talked on your podcast about how my first business didn't even take flight. It didn't even get off the ground before ... 

STEVEN: Yeah, wait, what was it? You and your mom doing? 

BIRD: A tea room. And I left my six-figure job in New York City, my favorite city in the world, to start it.

STEVEN: Aw, the tea room. What was it called?

BIRD: It was called AshleyJanee's. And it's my first name and my sister's middle name. And she ultimately was like, just kidding. I don't think I want to do it anymore. And I'm like, what? This was the whole plan. And I went into what I told you, what I know now it was like a mild depression. Didn't know it then. But basically slept all day. Just. It was awful.

STEVEN: Oh, yeah, that'll do it.

BIRD: Yeah. And so having the courage to be like, okay, doing this again with The League. So anyway, back to your story. 

STEVEN: I mean, it's just, it's really hard. I don't know if I have any exact answers or formulas for how to get over it or start the next thing if you will. But for me, it was just a slow burn. It was just having conversations with people I trust. Or like, if after several months, you're still talking about the same damn idea. It's either time to actually shut up and start it. Or move on. So I think I kind of just reached that point, you know. With Hardly Tomorrow it's been five or six months of me talking about this name, thinking about what it could be. Knowing that it could start as a podcast and then maybe morph into more of a brand. Like whatever it is. It was just like, I either need to shut the hell up about this because I'm going to start annoying Ally. Or do something with it. And I think it just kind of got to that point, you know. But I'm also very much a person who I'm really bad at doing something half-assed, like, for better or worse. I think that that's like good and bad, blessing and a curse. Because as you and I have talked about before, that can also lead to perfectionism, which is I think it's a blessing and a curse, right? Because the main reason why it's of course terrible is that it can lead to inaction. But it can also lead to you creating the best possible thing for the resources and things that you have in the present moment. So that's why I think it's good and bad. But at the end of the day, you have to just be able to just start and learn as you go. And that's just kind of where I was with like the podcast.

BIRD: Yeah, I remember you sending us the audio file for the musical intro.

STEVEN: Yeah, yeah. I wanted your feedback,

BIRD: I remember loving it. And literally saying, whenever I redo my music, I want to know who you worked with because it's so perfect.

STEVEN: Yeah. Shout out to my friend, Abe. He's an amazing, mainly, music producer, but artist himself. And he made the music for me.

BIRD: But yeah, you talking about perfectionism. So it's like excellence on one hand, and then inaction. I was actually telling myself this morning, "Ashley, one of your biggest issues is that you overthink things." It could be a social media caption. I will have Terry look at it to read it. And he's like, it's great. But I'm just thinking of how could it be better? I all like beat it to death with how it could be better. Just send it. No one is thinking that hard about it Ashley. 

STEVEN: Are you a sleep-on-it person, with an idea or decision? Cause for me, I definitely am. I'm like, I'm gonna sleep on this and then make the decision tomorrow. The worst part about that advice is though, nobody tells you how many nights to sleep on it. Are we talking a year? How long am I sleeping on this?

BIRD: Terry's a sleep-on-it person. And I'm like. Well, it's funny, cause I'm saying I overthink things and I don't sleep on it. But if I know, if I feel confident with like a decision, like with like, okay, should we do X, Y, and Z? I'm really good at kind of dissecting it and getting to an answer. It's more I guess, with content, like copy and images. You know those kinds of things. But I don't want to sleep on it cause I'm like, we gotta keep making moves. Which is not always great, obviously. But Terry, I will ask him, how long are you sleeping on it? Cause he can sleep on it for a long time,

STEVEN: I mean, copy and content specifically, especially for what you're doing. As long as you're just always providing value and speaking to your people's pain points, then it doesn't really matter, you know? As long as you're doing those two things. It's gonna be fine. Give or take a word here and there. 

BIRD: Yeah, I have to keep telling myself that. 

STEVEN: Solve people's problems, you know?

BIRD: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that you, you came out of it. I mean, it's a hard thing to come out of. You said, you're like, I have this new idea. And I've been talking about it for so long. And I'm gonna make it happen. And here we are. 

STEVEN: Yeah, I mean, at the same time, like, everyone's situation is unique to them. That business failed. I had, you know, this. Like, I'm also an actor or trying to be whatever. God, I hate that. But there's no, there's just no better way to say it. I, you know, struggling actor. That's the terminology. And I guess that's true. The pandemic hit, and Hollywood shut down. And especially for someone who wasn't, you know, for the top tier actors, like, the pandemic didn't matter at all. Like, they're, they're still getting and connected to the right people. Like, whatever, they're going to be fine. But for people who weren't very established in their career, yet. It was just, oh, shit. This is dunzo and may never happen againzo. You know? And I hate that I just rhymed those two words.

BIRD: It was good.

STEVEN: And so then, after just the first several months, it was just, I had to have something else creative, that I controlled. Because acting, I couldn't control to a degree. Yes, I could make a movie on my iPhone in my apartment. But like, okay. I don't want to do that every day. I needed something else, an outlet. And then this became the perfect thing for like, to make up the lack of work and time I was putting into acting that now was just gone. Hardly Tomorrow also kind of filled in there. So that was also part of the reason I just had to start it. But I'm assuming most of your people listening, aren't actors are trying to be. 

BIRD: I would imagine that's true. Yeah, but no, that's a really interesting perspective. Because whether it's acting or a pandemic or Hollywood shutting down. There's always things that kind of propel us into ... I've had so many guests on the show. And I love having guests on because it helps bring perspective and I like to pull themes. Like, I'm sure you've listened to how I built this podcast with Guy Raz?

STEVEN: A couple of times.

BIRD: I love it. 

STEVEN: Probably not as much as you.

BIRD: I love listening to the different episodes because you start to pull themes. Like oh, wow, there's this same theme. Everyone struggles. Everyone, you know. So it's like, then you realize I'm not alone. I'm not unique. My struggle isn't an issue. So one thing that I've had so many of my guests say is something happened that just catapulted me into whatever I'm doing now as an entrepreneur, and so I love that you brought that up, too. 

STEVEN: Yeah, thanks!

BIRD: This was good. This was a lot of fun. I'm so glad this was ...

STEVEN: Oh, wait. Are you in ending on me? Yeah, you keep yours are under an hour. So you are, you're saying goodbye. That's fine. 

BIRD: I am. But this was so fun. And I think it was so different from any episode I've ever had, like just how it all flowed and how fun it was, and candid. And there was lots of cussing, 

STEVEN: Oh sorry.

BIRD: And it was all so so good. Your story is, is powerful. I think it says a lot to your tenacity and drive and just heart to be where you are today. And I love you and your beautiful wife so much. 

STEVEN: Thank you! I love you, too.

BIRD: I shared in the intro how she was on the podcast and how you wouldn't mind me pubbing her episode too. 

STEVEN: Oh no. Please do. Please buy her art. That's how we pay rent. 

BIRD: Exactly. So this was fun. And I just really want to thank you for being on the show. And I want to ask how my listeners could connect with you. Obviously, we talked about Hardly Tomorrow. But if you want to share any links, web pages. 

STEVEN: I mean, those are a good place to find me. If you want to follow me on Instagram too, it's just @stevenboydwallace. So I guess you could start there

BIRD: I'll make sure I link that in the show notes, as well as, all of the Hardly Tomorrow links. 

STEVEN: Wait, are we not going to talk about cryptocurrency?

BIRD: We are not. But we can add it in if you really want to hear about it. Did you talk to Terry about this?

STEVEN: No, wait, are you all on it?

BIRD: He's very into it. We are not in a place that we can like really do anything extra right now. Because you know, there's like,

STEVEN: Hold on. Hold on. This is maybe me getting too personal. But did y'all buy bitcoin like 10 years ago?

BIRD: We did not. 

STEVEN: How am I supposed to sleep at night knowing that if I had bought 100 Bitcoin 10 years ago, I could buy the Texans?

BIRD: I know. It's wild. And I remember Terry went on a trip to Mexico with a guy who's super into cryptocurrency and came back just like, Babe, when we have X amount of money, we need to go and give it to this guy. So I mean, it's like, yeah, yeah, we missed out on that. 

STEVEN: So am I an entrepreneur if I bought some crypto, or not? Oh, okay.

BIRD: But you are still loved.

STEVEN: Oh, thank you. 

BIRD: I love it!

STEVEN: Well, Bird this was really fun. Thank you for having me.

BIRD: It's been so much fun. Thank you, Steve.

STEVEN: Is this how you end? Do you have like a sign-out?

BIRD: Well, usually. Usually, it's like, you know, it just kind of naturally ends. And there's a bing, which people are about to hear. 

My friend Steve. That guy is always a good time and brings so much humor and fun to the spaces he's in. I just love him. You'll want to make sure that you check out Hardly Tomorrow podcast for you know, candid conversations like this about mental health. You will laugh, you will cry. It really is just so good. So you can follow Steve on Instagram @stevenboydwallace or @hardlytomorrow. And you can support his work and learn more at hardlytomorrow.com. I'll be sure to link all of this in the show notes. 

Now as one final update, Bird Means Business podcast is taking a summer break. So for the month of June, there won't be any new episodes, but I'll still be sharing weekly goods to those who are subscribed to my weekly emails. If you're not already in the email tribe. You'll want to subscribe at birdwilliams.com/join so that you can stay in the loop and be the first to know what's next. 

As always, thank you so much for tuning in to Bird Means Business podcast, for subscribing on Apple Podcasts, and for following us on Spotify. Be sure that you tell every entrepreneur you know about this episode to really help normalize the mental health topic and share some laughs too.

Alrighty, talk to y'all soon.