BIRD WILLIAMS: You're listening to Bird Means Business Episode 84.

Hey, y'all! Thank you for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. I'm your host, Bird Williams. And I am so very glad that you are here. I had the honor of chatting with my friend, Helen Ngo, on her podcast. It's called “Live and Earn”. And I loved the conversation so much that I want to share it with you here, too. So in our conversation, we start off talking about how my parents and how my childhood could have shaped my relationship with money. We talked about how we teach our kids about money at a young age. And I end up sharing why I walked away from Wall Street and really so much more. It's a really great conversation. So I'm excited to share it with you here on the pod today. 

Let me tell you a bit about my friend Helen. She actually became our financial planner, way back in 2016. And she's now a lot more like a friend. I was actually texting her earlier today. We were talking about our little boys' shenanigans, how they want to destroy everything, and just the woes of entrepreneurship. So she's really become more of a friend. And she's still our incredible financial planner. She's one of the most tell-it-to-you-straight kind of people. And I just love that so much about her. So if you're looking for a financial planner, I'm gonna link her information in the show notes so that you can check her out. 

I also interviewed her here on Bird Means Business podcast back in I believe it was March of 2020. Sometime around then, we had our money talk. It's Episode 27. So I'll make sure I link that because it was a super popular episode. And I think you will really enjoy it. 

Now before we jump into the episode, I want to know, are you subscribed to get my weekly emails? Because if not my friend, you are really missing out. Because see here on the podcast, it's like me talking to you. I don't get to hear what you have to say back. But in emails, we're able to really engage with each other. So I go much deeper with insights and examples and personal stories related to each week's podcast episode. And you get it right there in your inbox. And it's not spammy because I hate spammy emails myself. So it's easy and free to sign up. All you have to do is go to birdwilliams.com/join. And my email tribe is always the first to know about big announcements and things like that. And we actually have some fun stuff coming in the next few weeks. So you want to make sure that you are in the know. Again, that's birdwilliams.com/join, and you'll be getting the goods. Alright, let's jump into the episode.

HELEN NGO: Ashley, thank you so much for coming back to the studio. I'm so excited. 

BIRD: Absolutely! I am so so excited to be here and honored. 

HELEN: Well, I brought you back because I wanted to talk to you about something highly important, which is how your upbringing shaped your relationship with money and how you perceive money and manage money today. So just to backtrack, if you can remember, do you remember, as you were growing up what was commonly said to you by your parents about money? Was it from like a place of scarcity or more of abundance? Or did they spoil you? Like, paint us a picture of what those financial conversations were like that you can initially remember. 

BIRD: My parents had kind of two different thoughts about money. My mom was much more of the spender. And my dad was much more of the saver and investor. So my dad was always talking about money in the sense of what's the value. You're buying a purse. You can have all these purses but you don't have any money in them kind of thing, you know. 

HELEN: An empty purse.

BIRD: Yeah. Whereas my mom's over here buying all the purses and buying all the purses for her two little girls. And so I was always kind of caught in this mix of both saving and spending. My mom was like, enjoy your life, get things you love. Whereas my dad was more of like, get real estate. He would show us how to invest in the stock market from a very young age. He actually had probably 15 stocks he was investing in at any given time. And he wasn't very tech-savvy. So he'd have us go on the internet. And you know we could do this. We were young but we got it. Get on the computer and print off all of his stocks, what the price was, what was the percentage, up or down in his portfolio, and notes and all of this. And for us as young girls, it was more just fun. Like we put little "I love you, Dad" notes on the side of it, you know? And it was just like a cute little thing. But I know now that once I went to college, finance was something that was just exciting for me and interesting to me, whereas I don't know that it would have been had he not kind of instilled that in me. 

So I don't know that my parents approached money from a scarcity or abundance mindset necessarily. I didn't feel like we didn't have enough money. Although I definitely knew that things were tight at times. Like I remember being young and summer break coming up and them saying, "Hey, this summer we can't afford to have cable". Which was kind of a big deal, because you know, we were going to be home, but we couldn't have Nickelodeon or whatever. And it wasn't a sad or bad thing. It was just like, hey, guys, this is what it is. 

And they were really good at stressing the team nature of family. So I not only saw my mom and dad play a team role when it came to these decisions and changes. But even they would involve us and be like, hey, as a team, as a family, this is something we're needing to do or that we won't be able to do. But then on the other side, we were so involved. I was in ballet, in a competitive ballet group. For years, we traveled. My first time overseas was when I was in sixth grade. I went to Managua, Nicaragua, on a missions trip with my church. They would send us to D.C. for camps in the summer. And I could tell that it wasn't like the money was easy to come by. They were saving up for these things. But it was important to them to expose us.

Again, I think my mom was much more into that than my dad was. He was really trying to understand where the return on investment was for ballet and even like the missions trip and this trip to D.C. But my mom was like, "No". Her father who didn't even have a high school education would stress to her expose your girls. Expose your kids.  Don't let them just stay in Texas City, Texas, you know. Let them get out there. And so I think it was just really important to her. And thankfully my dad obliged. 

HELEN: Oh my goodness. Do you remember a point in time in your childhood or as a teenager where you asked for something and they said no? 

BIRD: Yes. And it's kind of an extreme example. It was when I was turning 16. And I was finally going to be able to get a car. You would not imagine the car that I wanted. I wanted a Mercedes CLK 430 Cabriolet. 

HELEN: At 16?

BIRD: At 16. 

HELEN: How did you even know what that was? 

BIRD: Exactly. Like, how could I remember it to this day? Because I said it so much. I come from a faith background. So it was like the kind of thing, like I had a poster in my room where I was praying over it, believing that I was gonna get this crazy car at 16. What? You know, I would tell them about it all the time. Like, I'm gonna get it. I know, somehow. My parents were like, No, ma'am. They were like, you're gonna need to save up if you want to get that car. That's what they told us. And I ended up getting Helen, this Ford Explorer. It was like, turquoise. It was so old. The windows didn't roll down all the time. It was just a hot mess. It was like rigged up. But I remember being so let down like oh my god, I didn't get my dream car. And then I got this like trash.

But I was the only one in my friend group who even had a car at 16. And so we were just grateful that we had a way to get around. And I think a few months into it. I was so proud of this like a raggedy car I had because I had one. And I think that really helped humble me when it came to that sort of thing. 

HELEN: That car, did you save up for it to buy it yourself? 

BIRD: No, I did not. And I wasn't really saving up for the car that I was dreaming and hoping to have. My dad loves to work on cars. Girl, we have so many cars at our house. It's ridiculous. He's like always, quote-unquote, working on a car. So it was just one of those. 

HELEN: Oh my god. So do you drive a CLK now? 

BIRD: I do not. And I would not. 

HELEN: Now you're more practical. 

BIRD: It's so funny you asked that. Today my husband, Terry, shared on his stories. I was gonna share it with you actually. But this financial guy shared like the top 10 cars that millionaires drive. And it was Toyota, Ford, Chevrolet. It was like basic cars. There was like BMW at some point in the list. And I think Lexus too. But I mean, it wasn't anything super fancy. And it just was super profound. So yeah, these days, it's like, no. I'd rather pay cash for a car and be done with it. I was even telling my mom about it just now because I actually called her to talk through some of this to make sure that I remembered, you know, some of the childhood things around money. And I told her about that post and she said I'd rather spend $200,000 on buying someone else a house than on a car. That's really like how they frame things. More giving. And there's nothing wrong with having nice cars, of course, right. But just don't value that anymore. 

HELEN: I think it all comes down to what is important to you to spend on in your life. I know other millionaires who have Ferrari's. But then they're also very charitable too in other aspects of their life. So I mean, I take those articles with a grain of salt. I read those articles about how all successful people are morning people. I'm like, that's not me. I don't know if I'll ever be. You know, that makes me feel like I would never be successful. But it's so fascinating to me that you brought up the car thing. In your childhood, did you think that at 16 that was a representation that you would have made it? Kind of like getting your CLK that, "Oh, yeah. I made it girl. This is it." Or how did that even come up as a financial goal or purpose for you at that age? 

BIRD: That's a great question. If I'm honest, Helen, I'm not even big into cars now. So I would imagine when I was 16, reading some magazine or saw something on TV that was like this Mercedes CLK 430 Cabriolet, and I thought it was cute. And I was like, that's my car. It wasn't a status thing at all. Because none of my friends' parents or anyone I knew really drove a car like that. It was like a wild crazy idea, right? But I was like that's my car girl. It was everywhere. Like I put it on posters and stuff, like I said. So no, it wasn't like a status thing. It was more just I thought it was cute and wanted it. 

And I love what you said about it going back to what you really enjoy. Like, I don't enjoy cars, you know. I don't care what car I drive, honestly. I just like SUVs because they sit up high, and I can see better. But like, I'll spend more money on a nice pair of shoes or on a vacation. Then some people might say, "that's crazy that you're spending that much." 

So it just really goes back to what you value. Why are you spending so much money on a car? Is it because you want to just look and appear cool? Or is it because you actually value nice cars? 

HELEN: So just looking back, has there been any point in time, even coming in as an adult and you're starting to accumulate and make more money, where you spent money on something and you felt guilty about it? Or you felt like you are second-guessing that purchase? 

BIRD: Not that I can really think of right off the top of my head. I do know that my mom used to tell me when I was young, "You're gonna need to make a lot of money because you love nice things." She would tell me that all the time. I mean, there was the car, right? But even just clothes. Like I was always ordering from these magazines that would come in, and I would save up my money for that. They wouldn't pay for that. So I guess I don't have any purchases that I made where it was like, I feel super guilty about it. Because I'm like, yeah, I saved up for this. I bought this crazy Burberry bag when I lived in New York. It was over $1,000. I can't really remember. But it meant something to me because it to me was like something I could have that represented my time there in New York. I was there for two years. And it was grueling because I was an investment banking analyst. I was leaving. I was moving back to Houston. And so that represented something to me and it was so precious. So even though it was really expensive, and it was like a weekender bag. I mean, I use it all the time. Like it was special to me. So it was fine. I didn't feel any guilt around it. 

HELEN: I like that you shared that story because I think I bought a Louis Vuitton bag when I made my first six figures. And believe it or not, and I asked you that guilt question because I felt guilty for I'm like, Oh my god, I could have spent $1,400 bucks back into my business. And believe it or not, put it on eBay for sale. Somebody bought it. But then she canceled. I was really happy she canceled the order because I tucked it back away. And I was like, you know what? There's a reason why that happened. The universe is telling me, "Helen, reward yourself. It's okay." 

BIRD: Absolutely. I'm here for that. And I don't think I did enough of that when I launched my first business seven years ago, our gym business here in Houston. I mean, we were just head down. Work, work, work, work, work. Invest everything back in the business. We don't need to take a big salary. And I think we would have kept going that way until we had kids. I think kids kind of changed that for us because we were so drained and not really rewarding ourselves. And then now we had kids in the mix. And so now I think we're a lot better at pay yourself first. I don't know if you've ever heard of that profit first. Like that was mind-blowing to me. You know, like, yes, we should be paying ourselves first. 

HELEN: Yeah, keep some for yourself. 

BIRD: There won't be any for you at the end. 

HELEN: Yeah. That's so interesting You brought that up. Because you mentioned that seven years ago, when you started the gym business It was just the two of you, right? No kids yet, at the time, you and Terry, and you were busting your butt. Now you have almost three kids and multiple businesses, still managing the gym. You and your husband have multiple businesses, but you feel happier, managing all of that. 

BIRD: Yeah, I mean, it's freaking crazy. You know, it's wild, especially in a pandemic, having three businesses. But we feel so tied to what we're doing. And we manage it a lot differently. We learned so many lessons from our first business launch. 

HELEN: Yeah.

BIRD: We are not going to be making all of those same mistakes. We know how to navigate it a whole lot better. So there is a lot more freedom and joy in our businesses now than I think there was back then. I mean, it was a different type of joy. It was like a thrilling kind of thing going on. Now it's like we know that this is going to be sustainable and really work for us and it feels good. 

HELEN: Tell us a little bit about how you got into investment banking and even becoming an entrepreneur. Did that come from watching your parents and even your husband's family as well? Where did that come from you think? 

BIRD: I think entrepreneurship was me from a little girl. Like I was always trying to find stuff to sell or stuff that I could do to make money. But when I have sleepovers, have my girlfriends over, when their parents would come to pick them up the next day, we would have a performance for them. And I would tell them, they had to pay $5 to watch the performance before their kids to go home. I was like, "You have to pay us." And we would have practiced this performance and everything. I was selling jewelry. All kinds of stuff. So I think there was that in me, but I never identified it as entrepreneurship. I remember when I graduated high school I had on my like, yearbook, or whatever, that I wanted to be a COO of an international company or something like that. I don't think I really knew what business meant, or was. I just wanted to wear a suit and a briefcase and like walk around making deals. 

I got into college and for my first finance class, I was actually overseas. I studied in Milan, Italy for six months. I loved that experience. Everything about it. And I had a German professor in Italy teaching me finance and fell in love with finance. And it was so dynamic. In the business school at UT, it was like you're going to do accounting, or you're going to do finance. Which one? And to me, accounting was a lot more like just by the book applying stuff. Whereas finance seemed more dynamic with the market changing and all of that. So that's what made me decide to go the finance route. 

I had no clue about investment banking or anything. I'd never had an internship or anything. I spent my summers like I said in Italy. And then the next summer I was in Ghana working with a microfinance agency on a social development project. So I didn't do the Morgan Stanley investment banking internship in the summer where I got the job and that's how I got in. No girl. It was like I had no job offers, when it came to my last semester of college because I had spent all of my summers traveling in college. And so I was hustling going to all these different interviews. I cannot tell you how many I went to. And I had job offers landed and locked in in Houston with JP Morgan, Private Wealth Management, with Accenture and Deloitte for consulting. And at the last minute, I got a call to go to Barclays Capital in New York for this investment banking internship. Or interview rather. And I remember thinking, there's no way I'm going to get this. I know how that works. Like you have to have had the internship and the whole thing. I had no idea what they were talking about. But I didn't even care because I was like, this is a free trip to New York City. I've never been. Let's go. They're putting me up in the Rockefeller Center. Let's go. So I flew out there. And I had so much fun in those interviews. And I was so different because I didn't have the typical route to investment banking that all the people wanted to come and talk to me from the organization. And they were just excited about having me on. So anyway, I got the job. And I thought this is the most challenging of all the job offers I have had. I could easily go from investment banking to consulting. Whereas going from consulting to investment banking would be a lot harder. And so that's how I decided to get into it. 

It was such a steep learning curve when I got there. I had no idea what I was doing. It was really crazy. But I ended up doing really well. And long story short, I was the only analyst on this $4 billion IPO. I was working with teams in Spain, and Mexico, and Brazil. It was a huge landmark transaction for Barclays. Well, they had this ceremony where they were congratulating us. And my other analyst friends were coming up to me saying how awesome it was that I was able to run this deal and land it as the only analyst on the team here in the US. And I was like, this is not cool. This is not fun. Like this is not exciting. Like I should be excited about this. And I am not. And that's when I realized I didn't want to do investment banking anymore. I had gotten the 3rd year offer to stay on. I was going to be able to go to Hong Kong or London. 

HELEN: Oh my god. 

BIRD: Those are the offices I really wanted to go to. I really wanted to travel as you can probably tell. And I had gotten the dream of what I wanted. But I said the more I get paid in this industry, the harder it's going to be for me to leave. And I know that I don't want to do this long-term. And so instead, I want to use my youth for what I really do want to do. But I had no idea what that was. 

I wrote this list that I actually just made a podcast episode on my podcast. There were all these questions that I asked myself about, what do I do for fun? What do friends always ask me to do? What am I willing to struggle through? And those questions helped me come to realize, oh my gosh, I want to be an entrepreneur. Then it was like, well, I don't have a thing. I don't have a restaurant or a hair salon. I don't know what I want to do. And that's when I was reconnecting with my husband. He was my boyfriend. You know, we had broken up while I was in New York. We got back together. I moved back to Houston. And he was crushing it in the fitness industry, working for all these different studios around town. And I was like, you know that gym you want to have one day? You need to just do it now because I don't have a job. And I can't be a housewife. And I'm losing my mind. And here's a business model. We created this business model and pitch deck and went out to investors. And a year later we launched The League. That was a really long story. 

HELEN: No, that is a phenomenal story. I'm just like, oh my god, she's such a badass. Amazing. It sounds glamorous when you tell it. Like I'm hearing you. But you hit a really important point in your storytelling, which is, no matter how much money you made, it didn't matter. You were miserable. Investment banking. They are pretty much vampires. You work, work, work, work, work. 

BIRD: Yes. 

HELEN: You barely have time to eat. I know some investment bankers, you know when I was working in corporate. I saw them maybe as a vampire coming out to grab their lunch, and then they would sleep at the office.

BIRD: Yep. 

HELEN: Underneath their desk. 

BIRD: I had a toothbrush at my desk. You get black car service if you work past a certain time. I remember many nights taking a black car to my apartment from the office and telling them just stay because I'm literally going to shower, really quick, change into a new suit, and come back down to go back to the office. And this is like 4 AM, right? So it is insane. And I didn't so much mind the crazy hours. Because as you know, as an entrepreneur, it's crazy. It's a lot of work. It wasn't the work. It was the fulfillment. Like I'm doing all of this. But for something that doesn't matter to me to land a $4 billion IPO. I don't care. I want to take this effort and energy and put it towards something that I actually care about. And like, ultimately, with the gym, we got all these crazy stories of people coming off their blood pressure medication. Or, "You saved my marriage because I didn't feel sexy. And now I do. And so we're not getting a divorce anymore." What? Or there was one girl who was like, "I was in an abusive relationship, but the gym was the only place where I felt strong. And so I would come here just to feel strong. And now I've gotten to the point where I can leave that guy." That's what The League created for people.

HELEN: Wow!

BIRD: I will work my butt off to do that all day. 

HELEN: So I think perhaps it's because you have direct contact with your members. And you can see the actual results of your hard labor. Whereas with IPOs, when the deal is done, you just go home, and then the next deal rolls in. And you know, it's going to be a $10 billion deal. And then a $20 billion deal. And then you just work until you die. 

BIRD: And I would try to tell myself, Helen, like, well, this company IPOs. And then it's going to help create more jobs. And so that's going to help people. I was trying to find something to hold on to. But it was just like you're saying. 

HELEN: Yeah. You knew that you wanted to become an entrepreneur. So why didn't you stay in the finance industry and become an entrepreneur in finance? 

BIRD: That's a great question. I think it wasn't something like I said that really sparked joy, you know, like Marie Kondo would say. I love finance. You know, we talk about this all the time. On my podcast, I'm always talking about money. I enjoy talking about money. Money excites me. But it just wasn't everything to me. I wanted like the logistics and the planning and the organization and the strategy around building a brand and building a business. That's what I really was excited about and wanted to do. I just had to find something to do it for. And so thankfully, my husband, having the fitness background, it was a fitness business. I mean, it just totally worked. 

HELEN: Oh my god. So he's the product.

BIRD: Exactly. We say all the time, like we couldn't have done it without each other. I mean, I wouldn't have had a business to run without him. And he would never have run a business without me. He didn't want to do Excel spreadsheets and thinking about things strategically and running a business. You know, he just wanted to coach people and help people get more fit. So it really worked. 

HELEN: Well, you guys are like match made in heaven. 

BIRD: Well, you know. We try. We go to marriage counseling. Nah, I say that jokingly. But like it actually is really great. We started last year. But we're not special. I like to normalize like marriage and business is not easy. But if you stay in your own lanes, it's a lot better. 

HELEN: I think you guys really complement each other because he's more of like the creative and you're more of the structured person. Not necessarily behind the scenes, because I see you all the time in the media and stuff. But really, you're the one creating the enterprise. And I mean, I hope Terry doesn't listen to this and think it negatively. But he's like the product and the service that you guys are selling. 

BIRD: Yeah. And no, he wouldn't think negatively about that at all. And I would agree. And with the gym, I'm very behind the scenes, and I love it that way. I actually prefer it that way. But with Bird Williams, which is the strategy firm I just launched last year, I have to be the face of the brand. And that has been a really hard transition for me. But I'm like forcing myself to put myself out there. 

HELEN: It's hard. I know what you mean. 

BIRD: I get tired of seeing my face everywhere.

HELEN: I watch your Instagram lives. I'm like, "Good job! Good job."

BIRD: Oh gosh.

HELEN: You're braving it. Now the way like how you communicate with Terry about money and how you talk to him about money. Like in your household growing up, did you see your parents talk to each other about money frequently? Or was one person more of the CFO and the other one was more the COO in the household? And how did you carry that into your own marriage? 

BIRD: That's a great question. My dad was very much so the manager of money in the household. They would talk very openly about money and everything. My parents, one of the gifts they gave me terms of raising me was being very transparent and open about everything. Mom used to say, "If it hurts, say ouch", meaning communicate. Like don't just be upset or frustrated and not say it. They're very vocal and even about money. And I remember being able to tell my dad's frustrations with my mom for spending too much, or even too much on us. Like, you know, "They don't need to go do that." Or, "They don't need to go do this." And she'd be like, "No, it's important." And she actually says, now that he told her years and years later, like, I think I was in college, thank you for forcing me to like invest in them doing things because I wouldn't have seen the value back then. But I see the effect of it now years later as they're very well-versed and well-rounded human beings. 

So anyway, that was kind of how they did it. They didn't budget though. I remember seeing like the bills laid out. For my dad, I remember knowing things were tight, but also seeing like, envelopes where he was giving to the Special Olympics. So it was like, kind of confusing. Like, he was giving all the kids on the street money for every "A" they got on a report card. But then we weren't getting cable that summer. So I was like, what's happening? I saw them give so much. I mean, we would have people live with us all the time. I mean, all kinds of stuff that they would never share with people where they gave. So giving was really modeled. 

Anyway, when it got to my marriage, I get excited about money, like I said. So when it got time to budget and all of this sort of thing, I was like really excited about it. And Terry, not so much. The way he grew up was a little bit different. His parents divorced when he was young, and I'm not sure if money had something to do with it. But money was a very tense conversation for him. So I would excitedly open up my computer, my Excel spreadsheet with our budget and be like, whoa, we're spending too much here. And we need to move that around it. But to me, it was fun. And like, this is cool. And he would literally be pacing around the room. And it was so strange. I'd be like, "Are you nervous? Is something wrong?" And he'd be like, "No, I'm fine." But I would notice that we'd get into little arguments, or it would be really awkward. And one day I realized, like, I think he looks at money differently. And so we really started to talk through it. And I started to involve him more. And that was the big thing. I was telling him what we needed to do with our money, as opposed to like inviting him in and saying what do you think. I was taking my dad's approach, and my mom was just like, whatever, I'll just go along with whatever you say. But Terry didn't want to do that. So involving him in our budgeting and our decision making around finances, I think really helped him get a lot more comfortable, because he does not pace around the room anymore. And we have budget meetings every single month. 

HELEN: Oh, so you have a financial date? 

BIRD: Yes, we do. 

HELEN: Like it's set in stone. 

BIRD: Not so much in stone. It's in our joint calendar, I think on the fifth of every month. Around the beginning of the month, I'll export all of the transactions from the previous month and input into our budget what was actual versus estimated and all the stuff. And then on the 5th-ish, we'll sit down and talk through it. Where were we over or under? What do our savings look like? And on and on. But it does get moved around. Sometimes it's not always on the 5th.

HELEN: But do you see a change in his behavior when you bring it up now, when it comes to talking about money? 

BIRD: Oh, yeah. 

HELEN: Is he much more open about it? 

BIRD: And that was really, like I said on me, because I was basically like, shoving it in his face and down his throat. But out of excitement, not trying to be mean. But he thought it was very intimidating. And now it's more of like, "Hey, what do you think?" And letting him get more excited about investing and not just me being like, I know what we need to invest in. And this is what we should do. It's like, you know, letting him get involved and make decisions there too. 

HELEN: Oh, my goodness. And how are you teaching your children now about finances? Because you have young children. But I think it really starts from a young age. I mean, I grew up very differently than you. But I watched my siblings. And you know, I just had a baby. And I'm starting to already think like, how do I teach him to not be a brat. I grew up, or right now I'm in a much better financial position than what my parents brought me and my two siblings up in. And so I don't want my kid to think we're rich or spoiled. I want my baby to be humble, but also giving just like your parents were and understand work ethic. What are you trying to teach your kids? And how do you and Terry interact with each other to teach the value of that for your oldest now? 

BIRD: Yeah, so we have a two year old and a four year old. And the four year old is very animated and gregarious. He asks great questions. The two year old lately has been saying, "Money in my pocket." He's like, really into money and wanting to put it in his pocket randomly. 

HELEN: Sounds like his mama.

BIRD: Exactly. So one thing we're doing is really focusing on the giving. Well, two things. First, I'd say I want them to understand that things cost money. So once my oldest was complaining about not wanting to go to school. And I was explaining, "Well, you go to school because Mommy has to go to work. I have to go to work so that I can buy your gummies." He likes gummies, you know, those little fruit snacks. Or, "So that I could buy your blasters." He likes a little you know, whatever. "That's why I go to work. And you're going to go to school so that you can learn a whole lot so that one day you can get a job and provide for your family." That was probably a bit much for him. But I try to connect real life experiences with what's going on. 

Then when it comes to giving, like you said, to kind of keep them humble, because again, we are in a much better financial situation than when I was growing up already, you know, and I think that's exactly how it should be. That's what my parents want. They've always wanted us to do better and go further. So when it was like Thanksgiving, I remember we made sure that we gave one of our toys to like a local charity. One of our neighbors got sick and we took one of our popsicles. Our boys love popsicles. We picked something that they love, and we're like, "We're gonna go take it and give it to Matthew, our neighbor. He's sick. Let's go give it." And they were so confused and conflicted, because they were like, I want to keep it, I want the popsicle. And I was like, "Maybe you'll get one when you get home. But right now we're going to go give this to Matthew." And like letting them see giving is important. 

So I think for this age, we're doing things like that. Terry has this really neat system that I can't remember right now that he wants to implement where it's like, we'll give you a allowance, let's say it's $20. But if you let us keep $5 of it, we'll add $5 to what we kept. And so you're getting interest in the future.

HELEN:  Wow!

BIRD: Yeah. And so you can decide, you can get your entire $20. Or you can get $15. But in your bank, you're going to have $10 there, and it's going to grow over time. And he got that from somewhere, but I love it so much. So once they get old enough to get allowance and understand money a little bit more, I'm excited about that. 

HELEN: That's so fascinating. So I think part of, me and you at least, we've had conversations about this is leaving a legacy for our children. And so you mentioned something earlier about your childhood and upbringing, as you're doing a lot better now than what your parents were. Growing up, did you have any idea how much money they actually made? And if you did, did it seem like a lot to you at that time? 

BIRD: I think I did one day come across how much my dad made. And I felt like, whoa, that's a lot of money. He's an operator at a refinery. He does well. But I honestly think, and I say this respectfully. I love my parents so much. But something that stood out for me more than anything was like debt. The debt that they were in. And I think that is what has shaped my thought around money right now, which is that I have fear of debt. I do remember debt collectors calling. And like almost knowing the number on the caller ID to like, tell them whether or not parents were actually there. You know what I mean?  

HELEN: Yeah, yeah. 

BIRD: And that sort of thing. And that was when we were young. They got out of all of that before I think I was even in college. But I was just like, I don't want to be in debt. And so I think that has shaped a lot as to like, what I do and how I try to live and not carrying credit card debt and all of that. And even like, when I do get into debt, it makes me a little nervous. Like, I want to make enough money to pay it all off kind of thing. So I think that stood out more to me than what they made. 

HELEN: Somebody once said to me that they are ashamed of themselves, because they are not living up to the financial standards that their parents have provided for them in living. So, you know, she grew up in a household where the dad was the primary bread earner and he was a doctor. And she just feels as though she's not living up to or maintaining that type of financial lifestyle in her adulthood. Do you feel that sense of responsibility or obligation too, is to live better than what your parents provided you?

BIRD: No, I don't think I feel that in a sense that I just have to keep it at a certain threshold to be like, okay. I do feel a responsibility around not being in a bad situation. Like it not being worse, right. So like learning from their mistakes and learning from what I saw. Does that make sense? But they don't put any pressure on me to live better. Like, they see how I live. And they're just like, you're doing great. Like, they're glad for me, and they're here to cheer me on. And I mean, this year has been really tough for us financially. And we also made some financial decisions a couple years ago that I kind of regret. And my dad will tell me, like, he does not like that financial decision we made and he'll kind of bring it up. And I'm like, Dad, I can't do anything about what happened in the past. But there's no pressure to like, be or do a certain thing. I think he just wants us to learn, like learn from our mistakes, and you know, make better decisions. 

HELEN: I think that's really important. But I think that carries through to your legacy too. But we all make financial mistakes. I've made terrible investments in my life, for different business ventures and things like that.

BIRD: We are learning that was a real big lessons-learned a few years ago. And then this year, it's just been tough with COVID on so many levels. And I'm grateful for the savings we did have and all of that. 

HELEN: It's hard. It's really tough. Your situation. It's a little bit different than a lot of the clients that I deal with who come from a place of scarcity and they grew up in that place of like feeling guilty about spending. And this is really advice for me is like I always feel poor, Ashley. No matter how much money I make. I always feel like I'm behind and so scared that something or somebody is going to come in and take it all away from me. Any tidbits or closing thoughts of even as you go through with your consulting clients, what do you tell them on how they should approach money moving forward? 

BIRD: Oh, yeah, that's such a good question. When it comes to how you were saying, where you feel like this anxiety around losing it all. I think of it a little bit differently. I don't know how you're gonna feel about this. But like, we want money, right, because of what it gives us. But what we really want is what it gives us, right? So it's not like the dollar bill, or the number in our bank account. It's the travel. It's the shoes. It's the freedom. Right? So really focusing more on that, because there have been things that I wanted in life that were gifted to me. So it's like, just really trying to understand money's role in our mind and in our thoughts. Because understanding like, we're not just after like the money. We're after the bigger things. So kind of trying to like, have some reframing of mindset around that. And knowing that the buck doesn't stop there. Like just because you don't hit your financial goal this year. It's like when people are like, I want a million dollars. It's like, well, if I got $950,000, I'd be just as happy.

HELEN: I'm good! I'll be good, thank you. 

BIRD: Right! So like thinking about, it's not that I really want a million dollars. What do I really want? And like searching your heart deeper there. In terms of what I talk to my clients about. Oh, a few things. First of all, just regular budgeting, right, making sure you're budgeting. I mean, I have so many clients, they made $250,000 in their business last year, but they don't have a separate business bank account. And it's like, oh, my goodness. 

HELEN: Well, that's a compliance issue. Yes. 

BIRD: Right. And it's just fear from the unknown. Like, "Well, how am I going to pay myself?" It's like, really simple to pay yourself. But they just don't know. And so I just try to kind of educate them around that and like how much it can kind of bite you in the butt. Another thing I talk a lot about is your money team, and encouraging small business owners to, though it might feel like a tough investment, to make making sure you have a good CPA and a good attorney from the very beginning. And it's the kind of thing that's just hard for some people to like get. But it's like you need that. And I think personally, you need a financial planner, as well. You're our financial planner. I'm so grateful that we have you in our lives. And that's really a good place to start before you even really go into looking into owning a business, to see where you are personally. Because however you are personally going to feed into your business, right? If I'm like, so tight for money, that I'm having to pull too much from the business, and now the business is going to suffer. So, really understanding your personal financial landscape as well. Those are some of the tips that I give my clients around money. But it's always a fun conversation. I typically get a lot more excited about it, than they are.

HELEN: Yeah, I'm telling you. Like you and I are very different. Like, I like money, because I've seen what it can afford - me a better life. And I'm not just talking about being able to buy my Louis Vuitton handbag. The fact that I was able to even fork out $1,400 bucks, and having that option was what I was really purchasing. It wasn't about buying the handbag itself. It was about being in the financial power to have that option. "I could buy 10 of them if I wanted to, but I'm not going to." And I think that's like the reframing of how I've approached money making. And why I want to continue to generate more of it is because I'm like, wow, I'm able to afford more options in my life and afford more power in my life, and not have to make so many sacrifices all the time. 

So yeah, I love what you said about the money team and all that. It's a huge investment. But imagine getting screwed later cause you did your accounting wrong with the IRS. And then you're like $10,000 in back taxes with interest.

BIRD: Exactly! Or just not being able to sleep at night because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, or where you might get in trouble. Like just your ease of mind and opening up that space to grow your business and be able to focus there as opposed to like knowing whether or not your stuff is straight. So yeah, I think that it's super important.

HELEN: To add to that, I think it's peace of mind. Like you can't really do your business well, or whatever service or product you're doing, well, if you're stressing about money. You can't do your art well. And from an ethics standpoint, I've seen a lot of, even financial planners, make really bad ethics decision, because they sold a product that wasn't fitting for a client, but they made a huge commission off of it. I mean, just stuff like that. You don't want to be in a position where you're so financially strapped to where it causes you to do illegal things. 

BIRD: Right. I love what you said about it helps you focus on your art, or it helps you focus on the thing you're trying to do in your business. I talk a lot about focusing on your core competencies. And that's why you hire a CPA and a lawyer because they can focus on the other stuff that you're not having to sweat about. And you're able to really focus there. But I think in terms of reframing your thoughts around money, that's something that I find a lot of my clients have an issue with as well. "Like money is bad. Saying I want to make money in my business is bad. Like it makes me feel like I'm greedy."

And I'm like, No, you making money. First of all, that makes you a legitimate business, right? You have to make money to grow your business. But also, it allows you to do things. It allows you to hire on to your team. That's helping someone's family and livelihood. It helps you to focus more on the product or service you provide, and on and on. So it's like not bad to want to make money. I don't know if you get that a lot. But I have clients who just feel scared to say they make a lot of money in their business. 

HELEN: Do you find that It doesn't matter if it's male or female? It's just a mixture of people? 

BIRD: If I had to say, I would think women feel more of that way than men do. 

HELEN: That's interesting. I would say so too. Yeah, you and I think we're on a mission to encourage other women to just say it like, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying I want to make more money.

BIRD: Like, that is not a bad thing. 

HELEN: No, I mean, as long as you have good intentions, with the money that you're intending to make, what the hell is wrong with that? Like, it just means that I can give more. And you want to make more money so you can give more. So you can give something to your children when you pass away or whatever. Like you're trying to do good with it. It's not evil. 

BIRD: You can help more people. You have more bandwidth and capacity. We're all in business because we're solving a problem. Right? 

HELEN: Right. 

BIRD: We think that what we offer the world is helping somebody. And so the more money you make in your business is going to allow you to help people better. To solve problems better. 

HELEN: Better. Faster. 

BIRD: Yeah. Stronger. If you have limited resources, you can only do so much with your product or service. The more those resources grow, the better you can make it, the more creative you can be around it. So it's not like I want to have all this money in my bank to be like, oh, I'm super rich, or like, get a private jet. There's so many functions to it. So it goes back to like you asked me that question, what does making more money afford you? I love that you framed it that way. 

HELEN: Yeah. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for your time today. It's always a pleasure seeing you and hearing you and chatting with you. I could talk to you for hours about this stuff. 

BIRD: So can I. I love our conversations. Thank you so much for having me on the show. 

HELEN: Absolutely

BIRD: Well, there you have it. I hope this conversation has inspired you. And I'd love to know what you think. If Bird Means Business podcast has helped you in your business journey. Please leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Y'all. It will be so huge and it will really help other entrepreneurs learn about the show too. So make sure that you go right on over to Apple Podcasts and leave a review if this has been helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing your precious time with me by tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. I'll talk to you next week.