BIRD WILLIAMS: You're listening to Bird Means Business Episode 95.

Hi there and thank you so much for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. I am your host, Bird Williams. And y'all are going to get ready to hear such an incredible story by my girl, L.A. photographer, Phylicia J. L. Munn. Oh my goodness, you're going to hear about how taking a pause in a pretty dramatic way gave Felicia the clarity to step into what she's doing today, photographing celebrities like Anthony Anderson and Elaine Welteroth and the like. Y'all, her work is truly stunning. And the story of how she got into photography, really challenged me. It really made me pause and think about what I'm doing and how I can be more effective, more clear when I really make space to pause. 

Let me tell you a little bit about her background. So Phylicia J. L. Munn is a Georgia-bred and a Los Angeles-based photographer. As a Howard University grad, Phylicia pivoted to photography after spending close to a decade in finance. Since transitioning to photography full-time in 2019, her portfolio has grown over the past three years to include brands such as Netflix, Vanity Fair, Universal Music Group, and Ferrari, just to name a few. No big deal. She's also photographed esteemed talents such as Regina King, Andra Day, Anthony Anderson, and Sarah Paulson, and more. Phylicia celebrates diversity and prides herself on creating positive imagery of those who are under-represented. Her images are opulent, yet relatable, thus showcasing an aesthetic that allows her subjects to flourish. Yes! I'm telling y'all whenever I see her posts on Instagram, I like freak out every single time and I have to resist not doing the most in the comments, because I'm so excited for her and so amazed by her work. I'm really inspired just by her story, too. So again, I'm so happy to have had her on the show. 

And for some other background, Phylicia and I go way back. We met over a decade ago, during my wild and crazy days in New York City. And we've stayed connected over the years through all of our ups and downs, marriages, and all the things. She's really funny and really down-to-earth and sincere and she's one of those people who were like, you know what, she's a good one. She's a great person. 

I won't make you wait any longer. I could go on and on about how much I love Phylicia, but let's go ahead and dive into the conversation. 

Phylicia, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad to have you here.

PHYLICIA J. L. MUNN: Thank you, Ashley. I'm happy to be here. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations on everything. You're awesome. And just so the listeners know, I already told Ashley this. I am here because she's so awesome. So, I said yes, without hesitation.

BIRD: Phylicia, seriously, you are so inspiring on so many levels. I can't wait to get into your story. And I really want to just say this. Like, your work is incredible. I mean, we met, what, I don't even know how many years ago? Like 10, 11?

PHYLICIA: Seems like close to 10 years ago.

BIRD: Yeah, 10 years ago.

PHYLICIA: It had to be. It had to be close to 10 years ago.

BIRD: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. In New York City, we were doing completely different things with our lives. And here we are fast forward. Just so to see your incredible work as you post it on social media. It's just like, oh, my gosh. You see me in the comments, right? I'm like, all the emojis.

PHYLICIA: Yeah, you're in the comments. 

BIRD: I am strong in the comments.

PHYLICIA: Yeah, there are a few people that I can count on to hype me up when I post something. You are one of them.

BIRD: I am so amazed. I really want to learn or the listeners to learn how you got started in photography and to really kind of just share a little bit of your startup story. 

PHYLICIA: Okay. So, I've thought about this for a long time, because I told Ashley this, I can go on tangents. So I'm gonna try not to do that. And I will start off by saying my background is not in photography. I have a degree in accounting, went to Howard. HU. Shout out to all the HU alums. And I worked in finance for about eight years. And now that I am a photographer, it's a lot easier for me to look back on my life and see how I got here because this was not the plan. I did not know I was going to be a photographer. So as they say, hindsight is always 20/20. So I am speaking from a place of hindsight, not from a place of like intention. 

And so when I have that in mind, and I think about when I was a kid, I was always really creative. I loved art. I was in art clubs, art schools. I love painting, drawing. And then naturally, as I got older, I kind of transitioned into taking photos, but this was with disposable cameras, and not necessarily at the time, bigger SLR film cameras or digital cameras. It was disposable. You go to CVS, you go to the counter, get your disposable camera, you out the door. And so I kind of transitioned to that because that was a quick and easy way to express my artistic self without continuing the formal training of drawing and painting and being artsy. It was just like a camera on the go. 

And then that kind of progressed to once I was graduating high school, I asked my dad, he asked me what I wanted as a graduation gift, and I told him a real camera instead of always having a disposable camera. And so I literally went to Best Buy with my cousin when he went to the store to actually shop for something. I went to Best Buy. We went to the camera section, and we were in there trying out every camera, like just picking it up. You take the picture and you see what it looks like. And we landed on a Nikon. I didn't know Nikon was one of the bigger brands at the time. I was just like, this one takes good pictures. And it was a little point and shoot. So you know, a couple hundred dollars. And so my dad got me that and I took that to college. I had it everywhere with me. I always had my camera. I took pictures all the time. Again, like I said, this is in hindsight. This is not I was on this path with intention. It was just like, I enjoy taking pictures and this is what I do. I was still an accounting major. I was still hating my major. I was still going to these classes, dreading it. But I always had my camera with me and I went to school in DC. I photographed Barack Obama's inauguration. 

BIRD: Wow! 

PHYLICIA: All of that to lose my camera along with all of the photos.

BIRD: Oh, no! 

PHYLICIA: Yeah, I actually lost that camera twice. The first time was, and this is a longer story for another day. The first time was on spring break, in London. I was there for like a part of a college program. 

BIRD: Wow.

PHYLICIA: Friends and I went out to enjoy London. I lost my camera. We got it back. We end up finding, again, this is a long story, but end up finding a bouncer from a club who had the camera, a very long story. 

BIRD: Wow! 

PHYLICIA: We got the camera back. And then I'm so happy. And then senior year, go to Miami, spring break again, lose the camera indefinitely. Like it's still to be recovered one day hopefully, along with all the pictures, because I was not good at archiving at the time. And my way of saving was keeping pictures on a memory chip and putting them with the camera in the camera bag and they all stayed together. 

So if you can't tell, I'm still hopeful that one day this camera and these pictures will be recovered. Anyway, so that was college, a lot of my college memories were photographed, but they don't exist anymore. And then I graduated. I graduated from college. I actually tried to take a photography class in college when I had time in my schedule senior year. And I was like, oh, let me take some art classes because I kind of knew I liked art stuff, but just didn't know it enough to realize that was myself. Or that's who I truly was. And that didn't work out. Because I found out you had to have a bigger camera and you had to pay for it. And I was like, wait, you don't have cameras? you can just well now so I'm not taking this class because they want me to buy a camera. And so then when I graduated college, I used my graduation money, bought my first DSLR camera. Again, in hindsight, like I'm seeing all the pieces. I bought my first DSLR camera and so I'm like, alright, I work in corporate finance, but my hobby is photography. Like I was in this mindset of you have your day-to-day nine-to-five or whatever, eight-to-seven, whatever hours you work, job. And then I do photography for fun. Like that's just how life works. You have a real job, then you have fun outside of that. I was separating the two. 

And I would take photos. I started taking photography classes in Chicago at this immersive photography school for like extreme hobbyists or second career adults. And I took classes close to every day. I would leave work. And I had a two-hour commute from where I was in Chicago. But yeah, I would leave work and I would drive all the way to these classes. And this was the highlight of my day. And I would take these classes, learn the camera. I was signing up for stuff not knowing what I was doing. Like I signed up to shoot a wedding and I barely knew how to work the camera. And it was a disaster, y'all. It was. So this place sent out an email. And they were asking for photographers on a budget because they want to budget so they reached out to the school because they can get people for a little or nothing. And I'm like, oh, you don't have to pay me. I'll just take additional photos. Like you still get a real photographer, and I'll just take extra pictures. Well, I get there and the real photographer is late. And so everybody's looking at me like I'm the photographer. I barely know how to turn this camera on. The bride is getting ready. Bride's getting ready and I'm just like, you look great. You look great. And I'm just snapping pictures. Everything's turned out black.

BIRD: Oh, my god! 

PHYLICIA: I wouldn't show them. I wouldn't show them while she's getting ready. I was just like, "You look amazing. Yes, do that. You look incredible." Because I'm like, this is her big day. I've got to figure out what I'm doing, but I don't want her to panic. And so like the planner's coming up to me and she's like when the bride starts to walk down here, you get shots like this. And I was like, sure we can incorporate that. In the meantime, I'm calling the school. I'm like, can somebody please help me figure out this camera, but they're not open because it's like seven o'clock in the morning on a Saturday. The real photographer finally shows upright as they are about to walk down the aisle. Like he's missed the whole exit from getting dressed. He's missed the whole all of that. And I'm like, "Can you please just set my camera, and then I'll just take pictures. Like just set it. Like, just turn everything on and set it." And so he does that. And he starts to like tell me where to go. And we worked as a team to take pictures from there. So I was like I'm never doing that again like I learned really quickly.

BIRD: Oh my gosh. I guess he had to deal with the backlash once the bride realized that ...

PHYLICIA: I don't know. I mean, because the family was just so nice. Like, they started to invite me to family barbecues. They were extremely nice. And so I'm kind of also thankful that they were just so nice. I don't even think they noticed. And I think they were just happy that I ended up giving them extra photos at no cost. Because once you know, he did set the camera, I was able to take pictures as I normally would. And they just basically had a bunch of family photos. But that was an experience that was a crash course and what not to do. 

BIRD: Right? Right. Wow. Yeah, so that was after college while you were working in Chicago. And then what happened after that?

PHYLICIA: And then after that, I kind of got into the grind of working every day. I ended up moving to New York. And then photography kind of fell more into like a hobby and when I had time. It wasn't something I dedicated myself to as often, like in my free time. But I still notice how even that helped me get to where I am because I was still learning but I was just at a much slower pace. And family and friends knew I loved taking photos. So they would still reach out and be like, oh, can you shoot so and so's graduation pictures? Like can you shoot these family photos? So I was still shooting, it just wasn't as intentional. And it just ended up being this year of learning and getting me to where I am now. So by the time I got to deciding that I wanted to be a photographer, I was very good at working with the camera and knowing how to take pictures because it was like second nature. I was already doing it all the time. It's just the type of photography I hadn't narrowed down on. So I had family photos, travel photos, just a wide variety, wedding pictures, graduation pictures, the wider variety of pictures. And it wasn't like I just knew I was going to be a photographer. So that came a little later and it really just took time for me to know myself and be more mature to realize, I'm actually decent at this and I really like doing this enough that I'll figure it out. That just took time and growth that I just didn't know that at 22 when I graduated college. 

BIRD: Yeah. Ooh, that's so good. And I love what you said about like it wasn't wasted or like that time when even it like died off. You were still learning and you were still getting your toolbox, filling that up. Like I just think about someone who might be listening who might be resonating with your story and thinking, man, I feel like I have a passion that's kind of like a side hustle or something that I do as a hobby. And I don't want to waste time, like have I wasted time? So I love that you pointed that out. That's really great.

PHYLICIA: Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes you don't know what path you're on and you think you're supposed to do one thing. And then you realize you actually spent a lot of time also doing something else and building a skill set in another lane that could be useful to doing something else. And now it's just a case for me. 

When I was working in finance. And then I don't know, one day one week, I don't know what it was, I decided I didn't want to do that anymore. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was just like, I'm tired of working in finance. I felt like I knew I was a creative person. And I just felt like I wasn't being myself. And I also felt like anything that I had tried to do, I hadn't really failed. I'm not saying I was great. But it was just like, I'm doing something that I don't really like to do and I'm doing okay. So what if I do something I like to do and do okay? 

BIRD: Right. Or do even better.

PHYLICIA:  Or better, right? But I'm just like, just okay. Like if I could do okay at something I don't like doing. When I say I did not like accounting, which is why I ended up being in finance because you know, they look at comparable skills and you're like, okay, if you can't be an accountant, then be in finance. Like that was the shift. It was not because I had a strong interest. But even that time, fast forward a little bit, even that time in finance helped me with being a business person now without realizing it. Like I worked in finance. So when it comes to budgets, I can do them in my sleep. I can think about them. I memorize all the numbers. So I really just attribute that to the years that I spent crunching numbers for so long and managing money and managing budgets and tracking numbers. So that kind of made the transition much easier.

BIRD: Yeah. Wow. So when was that moment where you realized, okay, I'm gonna go for it? What was that switch? I know you said you just got tired of it. What did that look like? Did you just quit cold turkey and go straight into photography? Or did you say, well, let me figure it out? I know, you said, you're trying to figure out what do I want to do? How did that look? 

PHYLICIA: Yes. So, somehow or another, my husband and I convinced ourselves that we were gonna move to Paris. Ashley already knows this. She's like, come on, tell us. 

BIRD: Yes, yes! 

PHYLICIA: We convinced ourselves that we were going to move to Paris. So when I decided to quit my job, I was like, I'm quitting and I'm moving to Paris, period. I don't know what I'm doing. 

BIRD: That's amazing.

PHYLICIA: And I was also okay with that because I felt like so much around us tells us, you always have to know what your next step is. Or you always have to know what you're doing. And I was to a point where I was like, I've always tried to know. Now I'm actually okay with not knowing, and I know, it'll be okay. I know I'm gonna figure it out. But right now, I don't want to do this. And I want to move to France. That was it.

BIRD: Amazing! And just trust the process.

PHYLICIA: Yeah, just trust the process. Like, I just wanted to live in the moment for a second. I felt like I was always living for what's next. You said ago, you go to college, okay. And then you get in college, and you're the whole time you're thinking about what are you gonna do when you get out of college? Then you get out of college, you get a job, you get the job you want. And it's like, okay, well, what about the next job? Or what about my promotion? It was always like ...

BIRD: ... something else. 

PHYLICIA: Yes, something else and living in the future. And I was just like, right now, I just need a break. I don't know what I'm doing next. I just want to move to Paris. And I want to enjoy living in Paris, literally enjoy it and not think about what I'm doing after that. And obviously, that's slightly a privilege. Like, that's not something everybody can do. But thankfully, we have worked up to the point where we were in a position to do that. We had saved some money. And that was the situation we set up for ourselves to where we didn't have to think about it for a little bit. And we're young. We didn't have any kids. Still don't have any kids. So we could be a little more unconventional about our approach to life.

BIRD: That is beautiful and so powerful. I mean, I can't even tell you how much that speaks to me. And I remember it speaking to me then when you did it. I remember seeing that y'all were moving to Paris. And you know, the questions are like, oh, what are you doing there? Where are you working?

PHYLICIA: Yeah, that's what everybody said. They're like, so what are you going to do when you get back? So where are you going to work? So, what, you're just moving? But what are you going to do when you get back? Even my job when I quit, they were like, so you coming back here? I was like, I don't know. 

BIRD: That's amazing. I mean, for you at such a young age to value that and to take that leap. I mean, I think is huge. I mean, I think that courage can show itself in different ways. I know when we launched the gym, there are so many people who were like, y'all are crazy. Y'all are so young. And we had read this book that was like nothing to lose everything in the game, something like that. And it was kind of like what you're talking about. It's like, look, we're gonna just go and just trust the process and do it. And like, what's the worst thing that could happen, you know?

PHYLICIA: I mean, that's how I felt. I was like, the worst that can happen is it doesn't work out and I have to get another job.

BIRD: Exactly, which you can do. Yeah, wow, that's amazing. So you were in Paris. And then did you do any photography while you were there?

PHYLICIA: Yeah. So the one benefit that I see now of making that change and moving there is then I had the freedom and space and capacity to then realize what I actually like to do and what I did very often and what I was decent at because I didn't have other things clouding my judgment and taking up my time. I literally was responsible for my whole day. And that actually gave me slight panic attacks the first month or so because I was not used to not having something to do. I was not used to dictating my own schedule. Like you think about people or in school, there's always somebody telling you what to do with your time. And then now I'm waking up every day with nobody telling me what to do with my time and I had to figure it out. And so because I enjoy taking pictures and photography, like that was like a natural transition. I was like, well, I'm gonna take pictures. I'm gonna take travel photos, I'm gonna do a travel blog because we're here and you know that's all like in like content creation type space So I'm doing videos and I'm taking pictures to fill up my time because just sitting around isn't something I wanted to do. And I will say that moment happened when I did a photoshoot for a brand in Paris. And I was taking photos, we were near the Eiffel Tower. And it was just one shot like I still remember to this day, where I didn't even take it yet. But I saw it in the viewfinder and I just had chills. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm doing this. I'm gonna be a photographer. I do this all the time. 

And so I was also in a space where I could see people making a living as a photographer, and I didn't know that before. I didn't know outside of wedding photos and school photos that people were photographers and they made a living doing it. It seems like it may be obvious because you see all these billboards, you see all these ads and you see all this content that you're flooded with all the time. But I don't know, at least for me, I didn't always make the connection between there is a person who created this content. And then now because I have all this, the world is opened up, and I have all this time and space and I see things differently. I'm like, wait, people are actually doing this. I'm decent. I think I can give it a try. So I was like so when our visa's up in Paris, I don't want to go back to doing finance. I'm gonna try to be a photographer and just see what works out. And like I rather not at least try and see what happens. I would see photos that people will be getting paid money for it. And I'm like, I could do that. I could do that.

BIRD: Yeah! How incredible is it that you created that space and that freedom, how enlightening it was, how much clarity it gave you? I mean, that's so powerful. And I hope folks listening really catch on to that. Like myself, me myself, I'm thinking about how can I carve out some space or time? I mean, I know, it's a little bit crazy over here with all the kids and all the things. But still, I need clarity in certain areas of my life. And you might be though, it seems so hard or crazy moving to Paris. I mean, I don't see us doing that. But there's something I can do um that can feel a little crazy or hard to still carve out time and space. But that's really, really beautiful, Phylicia.

PHYLICIA: Yeah. And sometimes this is easy as when you are feeling the need to just stop and slow down, then just do that. Just stop and slow down. Like even if that means okay, this weekend I'm not doing anything. I'm literally not doing anything. I still have weekends like that. If you just need to sit on the sofa, binge watch your shows, or you just need to go on a walk or you just need to sit in your special room in your apartment or in your house that just makes you feel good. Turn your phone on silent. Put it on Do Not Disturb, even if it's just for a whole day. Like even that helps sometimes.

BIRD: Yes. Wow. I love that so much. So you went from that. You dove right in after kind of having a moment which I love how you described. And then when you got back, y'all were in Atlanta and when you went to Paris, right? But then we came back and moved to L.A., right?

PHYLICIA: Yes. After Paris, we moved to Los Angeles. And that was a conversation my husband and I had trying to figure out what cities we're gonna move back to. He's from Detroit. I'm from Atlanta. I'd lived in Chicago. We both had lived in New York. We met in D.C. So we kind of had small roots in multiple cities. But then as we talked about how I wanted to pursue photography, more in this style of photography, I wanted to shoot, I was like, I think New York and L.A. are good markets to be in. New York is cold. L.A. is not. So we landed on L.A. because the weather's nicer.

BIRD: Yes and yes. You know I know all about that. New York. Those blizzards. No, ma'am. Wow. So you moved to L.A. and then you just kinda got to it? Had did you kind of put yourself out there? When did you kind of see like a turning point in your career?

PHYLICIA: I feel like I'm just living in hindsight all the time. Because I think one important thing to note for anybody who has a small business, or they're thinking about getting a small business is like sometimes you are in the motion of being on the right path and you don't realize it. You may not know that there's a turning point, because you are in the midst of figuring it out and doing it. Like there's not always time to like reflect. So some of the answers that I'm giving today, this is my moment to reflect because I don't know all the time. So yeah, when we moved to L.A., I didn't know anything outside of how to pick up a camera and take a picture. But there's a whole business side to being a photographer, specifically a commercial photographer, editorial photographer, advertising photographer, or even a wedding photographer. Like there's a whole business that's separate from you know how to work your camera, and you have a good eye. And I spent a lot of time just trying. So first I went into it with a business mind. Like I have to get clients, you know. I'm a photographer, so how do I get clients? And so I would go to random events in L.A., anything that I thought somebody would need a photographer. I went to makeup conferences. I like made up a fake small fashion business to go to some fashion conference because I was like, oh, they need pictures. And when I say made up a fake, I made up a website, got it registered. So I was thinking the way that I get clients is that i have to meet people and I have to go to where they are. And where will people who need a photographer, where would they be? So like it was a lot of that and it was not working. That strategy was not working at all. And so then I was like well maybe I needed to speak to photographers that know what they're doing and they're doing what I want to do. And I would try to reach out and to assist them. In the beginning I wasn't getting any yeses. Like people will respond you know positively and give me advice but I hadn't really found someone that would say yes to me assisting. So then I started telling photographers I was willing to pay them for their time to like teach me lighting. And it was genuine. I was just, you know, they're busy. I don't want them to think that I'm just gonna use their time and not be respectful of it. So one thing I want to get better at is lighting because I'm thinking I have to know everything. So newsflash, you don't have to know everything at all. Okay? Okay? You don't have to know everything. And so I'm like, alright, I want to be a big time photographer. I know how to take pictures, but I don't really know how to light everything. So maybe I'll just ask these photographers for workshops on how to light. And I had one photographer, Eric Humphrey. I'm going to shout him out every time. I'm never forget this. He actually forgot and I had to remind him how we met. But I DM'd him and he responded. And he was like, I don't do workshops. But you're more than welcome to come on a shoot and just learn in real time. I almost dropped my phone. I was like, he don't even know me. Like I could be a crazy person. And he's like, just come on set and just learn. I'm like, yeah, I'll be there. What day? What time?

BIRD: Right! That’s amazing. Wow.

PHYLICIA: So that was a turning point. Once I started assisting Eric, and then eventually other photographers. Like the amount of information that I was able to learn quickly and like, without really any risk, because I'm not the photographer. Like I'm showing up to help. So I'm like a fly on the wall, seeing how people are interacting, even understanding like the vocabulary in the language between the photographer and the client, a photographer and the assistant. Learning the positions that help a photographer like assistants, digital tech, different equipment. All of that was just like crash course to being a photographer. So that was a huge turning point. This is when I realized, oh, I don't need to know how to do everything. There are people who do this, and I find the right people to help me execute this. That's when I was like, oh, I can legit do this. It's gonna be okay.

BIRD: Wow. And I know I've told you this before. You do such an incredible job of shouting people out. Like you're always shouting out your camera guy or whoever all the different people that are helping you and assisting. It's just like, really beautiful and important, I think to do that.

PHYLICIA: Yeah. So thank you to all the photographers that let me assist. I already shout out Eric. Shout out Dana Scruggs. Shout out Make Sails for always giving me tips. Who else? Parrish. Shout out to Parrish for helping me out. So, thank you.

BIRD: That is beautiful. And I want to point out two things you said. One thing you said is that I was figuring it out, I was like going and figuring it out. And I was trying to execute on one plan. But then maybe it wasn't working. So I tried something else. I think that's so huge. I find that so many people get stuck because they don't even start. You know what I mean? They don't even start. They don't even put themselves out there. You built a whole website for a fake company to register for something to just to get your feet in the door. Like that says so much to your hustle, and to your intentionality about it. Whereas I see so many people who are like, I want to start a business, but I'm nervous about a website. It's like, just do it. Just start the process. Get on Squarespace, look at the packages, you know. You have a 30 day free trial. Just get on there, start putting stuff up. Just start and then the momentum will start to build and you'll start to feel like okay, I can do this. And then you'll get more excited, you'll get more opportunities, because you actually start. So I think that's so key, right? Start even though you don't have it all figured out. Just start.

PHYLICIA: Yeah, just start. And know you're going to fail and just be okay with that and get the failing over with. Is that the right way to say that? Get failing over with fast? 

BIRD: I know what you mean.

PHYLICIA: Fail fast. I know that's like somebody's book or something. But the sooner you can get the fail part of your journey out the way like, the sooner you will be on the path you want to be on. And so you have to also go into it with the mindset of you're not going to know what you're doing, you're going to mess up, you're going to fail. Just don't take forever to do it. And also, you got to realize I was an adult. I was married. I had bills. So there's also this part, it's like, I don't have time because I'm not making any money. Like I'm not making any money. And I did not go into photography to make a lot of money. I was going into it because I genuinely enjoy doing it. And I was like, I just want to do something that I like to do and I'm really good at. But not making any money was not an option. Zero is not the option. So if anyone is in the same type of mindset that I was in under the pressure of being able to survive, then yes, you will be like, okay, I think there are people there who can pay me. How can I get in there? What do I have to do to get in there? Within reason, you know? We're not gonna do anything illegal. Within reason. And so that's how that came about. I was like, I just need a business. And to prove I have a business you need a website and a business card. Okay.

BIRD: Just in terms of your tenacity, and I mean, it says so much to where you are today. The other thing I wanted to point out is how you said you got into close proximity with people who are doing what you were trying to do. I think that's huge, you know. I mean, every business is different, and everyone has different resources and all of that. But something that we did with The League, our gym business, too was, Terry was working at another gym. Sean Mata, I’ll shout him out. He let Terry go in there and actually work and have clients. So he was able to kind of see how a gym business as a small business would run and stuff like that. So to anyone out there listening and thinking about getting into a specific type of business, finding someone who's in that space that you could go, like you said, assist or just help. How can I help you? Because there's a small business owner who would love some help, right? So offering that to them, and then being able to learn from them is huge. I love that you brought that up. 

So you have worked with some incredible talent, which is just so amazing, like Anthony Anderson and Elaine Welteroth. And so when you're working with them, do you ever feel intimidated, as you're working with these celebrities or big brands? Or what you did with the other photographers you shouted out that kind of help you? How does that work?

PHYLICIA: So I'm not someone who's easily starstruck so I think that helps too. Like I approach everybody pretty much the same. I like to think I'm a pretty friendly down to earth person. 

BIRD: You are.

PHYLICIA: Celebrities are also people. They have a life that isn't, you know, the same as like everyday people may understand. They may be in the media a little bit more, but they're still people. They eat, breathe, sleep, you know, all the same. And so I think that's how I go into every shoot. It's like, I'm meeting someone new today. I'm meeting somebody I've never met before. Like, let me say hello. I'm not necessarily, maybe it's just my personality and I think by me not being so easily starstruck, it makes it a little easier to be in those situations. Why I'm so easily starstruck, I don't know. I don't know. 

So I wouldn't say I'm intimidated. But there are times where I walk into a shoot and I'm like, oh, my goodness, what did I just talk myself into? 

BIRD: Oh, wow. 

PHYLICIA: And I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, how did I get myself in this situation? Am I really ready to like do the cyber shoot? I do have moments sometimes at the beginning of shoots. And the way that I cope with that is, I just remind myself that I take pictures. I'm like, Phylicia, just take the picture. Like, just pick up the camera and just take photos. And that usually simplifies it a little bit for me. And then I know once I get behind the camera, I'll get comfortable, and I'll get into my rhythm and everything will be fine. But sometimes there is that moment when I walk into some sets and I'm just like, "Whew, what are we doing here today?"

BIRD: I love it. I love it. I love that kind of what you can tell yourself. "Hey, Phylicia, just pick up the camera. Take a picture." Right? 

PHYLICIA: Yeah, like at the end of the day, I'm taking photos. 

BIRD: Yes! So I think for anyone out there listening who might have some of that imposter syndrome come up when it comes to whatever in your business, just having something you just tell yourself. Hey, this is what I'm doing. I'm good at this. You know, I've validated this. Let's go. And just get that confidence you need. 

So what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned from photography? And I guess this is more specifically for anyone like who would be in the photography world or have a business related to photography? Do you have some big lessons learned?

PHYLICIA: I'm just looking at my notes, because I remember you told me that was gonna be a question. And I was like, what did I say? Because that's another question where it's like, I know I'm still learning. And I know I'm constantly learning. But I always feel like it'd be helpful to give somebody like one big piece of advice. The biggest thing is that I'm still learning. And I already mentioned this one time, but I didn't need to know everything. And there's a lot of pressure when starting, like, there's so much that you have to have prepared and do and planned out in the very beginning. And I didn't need that. I didn't have it. But I also was happy when I found out that I didn't need it, because it made it a lot easier to just keep going and build along the way.

BIRD: Yeah, that's great. I love that. Especially what you said around, you're still learning. So think about what you're still learning. I just had a challenge and I was telling someone who asked about the learning and understanding, like trying to know everything, and I was like you won't. And I told him I have a little line item in my budget that's continued education for me in my business, where I'm taking courses or something to improve my knowledge. And so I love that you said that you're constantly learning because any entrepreneur is going to need to have that for sure. 

PHYLICIA: Yeah. Oh, and another thing, have a good team. I mean, you mentioned I always give shout outs, I have a bunch of assistants and digi-techs that I work with. And we don't have time for me to list all of them. You know who you are, so thank you to all of you. But that's probably top two, I'll say top five, because I'm probably missing something. But I've learned it's like having a team around me to help me execute a shoot is like so beneficial. Like it's to the point where like if there's a shoot at a certain level or that has a certain size scope, I won't do it if I can't have like a team, because I know I'm only one person. And I know many times people try to think that they can carry the weight of a lot of things. but it makes the process so much easier when you can focus on the thing you need to focus on, and you have other people to focus on other aspects. Because then things go left, if they go right, if they go north, they go south, they go anywhere besides where they're supposed to go, you can kind of help troubleshoot without the other parts falling to the side because you have other people to like hold that piece together. So I like working with the team, because it just, it's like, I got backup.

BIRD: Phylicia, this is so good, because I talk about this a lot on the show. And I can't tell you how sometimes it's like pulling teeth to help entrepreneurs, except that in order to grow their business, they're going to have to grow a team. They're going to have to have a team, have to have support. Because, yes, while you're a solopreneur and it's just you in the beginning, you might be doing all the things - the admin, the janitorial, the, you know, financial stuff, all this stuff, right? The teaching, whatever it is. As you grow, you have more clients, you have a bigger audience, whatever it looks like, you're going to have to focus on your core competency in order to like really grow the business. You're gonna have to outsource whether it's to an assistant like a, you know, executive assistant, or to even just like a bookkeeper, you know? You shouldn't be doing it.  Like you said you're really good with Excel and numbers and data.

PHYLICIA: Yeah but I got a bookkeeper this year.

BIRD: Okay? Same here, I have a finance background. When I first launched The League, I was doing all the QuickBooks. I thought it was cute. I was all excited. And it got real old real quick. I'm gonna be hiring a bookkeeper because I am behind on this because I have too much going on because the business was rapidly growing. You're gonna have to have a really good team. And again, that's something that you can grow over time. But you have to start to get your mindset to the place of okay, like you said, you were like, I realized I didn't have to do it all myself, I could hire other people. And that made it so much more realistic. And like I was more motivated to do it. So some people could be stuck, just because they're looking at all the things that they had to do. And they're like, I can't do this. Well, then think about hiring other people on, you know? 

PHYLICIA: Yeah, definitely. 

BIRD: I love that you brought that up. I have one more question I want to ask. Were there any life adjustments you had to make to kind of make this dream business a reality? It's not really a question I've ever asked anyone on the show. But I know that a lot of the questions I've gotten like in the challenge that I just did, like how to adjust your life for entrepreneurship. So were there any that you had to make? 

PHYLICIA: Yes, so that was probably one of my favorite questions I saw that you sent me. And so, how much time we still got?

BIRD:  We're good. We're good. 

PHYLICIA: Like, I gotta answer for this one. So the tricky part is, you know, once I decided to be a photographer, I use the word dream loosely, because sometimes I realize I have been living my dream and it has not been what I dreamed it to be. And the reason I say that is my work started to pick up in the middle of a pandemic, last year, 2020. And so there were a lot of life adjustments, one just dealing with the pandemic in general. But then two, everything that I had learned from assisting, it all came crashing at me, because now I needed to execute these things with fewer resources, because there's a pandemic, okay. And so, I didn't really know how to handle that at first, but I had to figure it out. Because I'm like, this is what I want to do. So on top of having a pandemic, I pretty much didn't have any social life. So when we talk about adjustments, I literally made a point not to meet up with people and not see people, because I did not want to risk and COVID because I'm like, I have worked really hard to get to this point to get these jobs. And now I have these brands, and these people are reaching out to me to take their photo. I am not going to get sick and not be there. So drinks will have to wait, hanging out will have to wait and I pretty much was all into like work and growing my business, growing my art growing my craft, like all of that. Sometimes it got a little lonely because like, you know, I have friends that I want to hang out with, a family I want to see. But I just had to make that choice and that sacrifice. Like this is not the time. And it's unfortunate that it's in the middle of a pandemic. But I'm like, if people are reaching out, then I need to respond and I need to be available. 

The other thing was Black Lives Matter picked up. So that was another thing that's happening, while I'm quote-unquote, living my dream. So these are two things that I would not want to happen while I'm doing the thing that I want to do. But I had to realize I have to go with the flow. Like I can't always dictate how life is going to go. I can't dictate how my future is going to unfold. I can't dictate what the surrounding factors and surrounding environment are going to be. I just have to adjust. And I bring that up because I started to get more responses once George Ford was killed. And I knew that was because I was a black photographer. I knew that. And I own that because I was like, well you know, if you're looking for black photographers, I'm a black photographer. I didn't necessarily say it that way, but I was very aware of it. And I remember one of my first assignments was photographing a protest. In the beginning I was very excited because I'm like, okay, now finally, because I would have meetings and you know, people would ask, well, who else have you photographed for? And I didn't have anybody. It's like nobody. So it was this sense that I needed to have work elsewhere for them to trust that I could do the job. So when I finally got this, it wasn't the ideal scenario. Like it wasn't what I would have wanted my first job to be -photographing what I consider a black pain and black trauma. Like that's not the realm that I'm in. That's just the case. 

And I remember when it came out, I cried. And they caught me off guard, but then I just remember not really being happy, because I was like, why is it like, this is my come up? Like, why is my come up off this? It's like I know I want to be a photographer. But like, I don't want to do this, like, I don't want to shoot this. I just remember I had like a good 15 minutes of just not feeling it. And I was like, I'm not shooting this. I was like anybody who wants me shoot black pain and black trauma, like I'm not shooting that you gotta call somebody else. And I respect all photographers and people who document protests, marches, revolutions, all that because it takes a it takes a special type of emotion and thick skin to be in that environment and separate yourself. And I wasn't always feeling like I was capable of doing that, because I'm like, I'm also a black person. Like, I'm also feeling this as a person. But this is also my job. So its like, I don't know what to tell you, but this ain't right. 

I found myself, when I was shooting in these moments, always seeking out the joyful parts of black expression. Like even when I was going to the protest, I was avoiding many times, I was avoiding the painful parts, because I was like, I just felt like the media, like was jumping on to ... like we've been saying this for years. And like now it's like, okay, let's highlight this. And it may not even have been intentional, but from my perspective, and one thing that I was very proud of is like, okay, well, I am a black person. I'm in this space and time that I didn't have a choice on, but how am I going to just use my craft to showcase this time? And I was like, well, I'm gonna photograph it the way I want to photograph it, because I am a black person, I have a perspective, and that was just my approach to it. And so this was all last year, 2020, when I went from first part of the year not really having any jobs. To all of a sudden, having jobs and understanding, again, where like, this was another turning point, understanding where that turning point came from, and kind of accepting it for what it was, going with it. But then I knew I was like, well, okay, this may be my entry point into the door for some of these situations and projects. But I was like, this is not going to be the reason I stay. I'm going to make sure I you know, when I do get on the shoots, like I'm going to kill it. Okay, like, I'm gonna do a phenomenal job. They're going to hire me again. And they know that I'm a good photographer, and I need to be here, not because I'm just, you know, black, and I'm a woman. It's like, oh, she's actually good at what she does. She has a good eye. That was my take on it. So when you talk about adjustments, there was a lot that I had to just like, I had to adjust my mindset, I had to adjust how I was living. It was just a lot that had to go into when I realized, oh, this is, well, if you want to be a photographer right now in 2020, during a pandemic, and black revolution, this what you got to do. 

BIRD: Right? Wow! That's incredibly powerful. And I really resonate so much with what you said, and I'm so grateful for you to share that so transparently. That was a lot, like all of that. I know so many small businesses, you know, had to deal with all the things that was happening with not only the pandemic, but with the racial injustice conversation. And it definitely hit different for black owned businesses and black people, because you're trying to run your business, like you said, it's your job. But then you're also like experiencing your own trauma and having to work through all of that at the same time. It was a lot. So thank you so much for sharing that. 

And like I said, I'm just so inspired by you and inspired by your story on so many levels. Not only that you're doing such incredible work that I literally just like jump out of my seat when I see on Instagram. But also like how you came to it. You came to it because you chose to rest, you chose to pause, you chose to, you know, trust the process and just say whatever is supposed to happen will happen. But I'm going to enjoy this moment in my life as I'm living in Paris. And to have that moment there is just so incredible and so special.

PHYLICIA: When you say that, that just sounds so like even I'm gonna enjoy this moment when I'm living in Paris. I know that's the way it happened. But it just sounds so glorified. Like, so people know, I told Ashley this too. I was like, I had this vision when I was in Paris that I was gonna be living it up, buying all the bags, everything. Got my croissant, my baguette, and my wine, big sunglasses all the time. And that was not it. Okay, we were living in Paris on a budget. Okay, you know, granted, it was a great experience. But just when you said that phrase, I was like, oh, that sounds so fancy.

BIRD: I totally feel that. I was like I've mentioned to you, when I was in Milan, same thing. Very different experience than what I thought it was, but it's still had its beautiful moments. 

PHYLICIA: Yeah, it was still positive. 

BIRD: I love that. You are such a light. You really are. 

PHYLICIA: Oh, thank you!

BIRD: And I'm just so honestly honored to have you here on the show. I know you don't do it for everybody. So I feel really, really special. And I'm just so inspired by your story. And I know our listeners will be too. So I want to make sure that folks who've heard your story and hear all of the amazing things you're up to know how to connect with you online and basically connect and keep in touch. So where's the best place for people to connect with you?

PHYLICIA: I'd say two main places are Instagram and my website. So Instagram is @phyliciajphotography. And that's Phylicia with a P as in Pepper. So P-H-Y-L-I-C-I-A, J as in Jordan, photography. So @phyliciajphotography. And then the website is phyliciajphotography.com.

BIRD: I love it! I will take both of those links and put them in the show notes. So for anyone listening, you can just go right down wherever you're listening to click those links in the show notes to connect with Phylicia online. 

PHYLICIA: Thank you.

Wait, I also have to give you your shout out. So anyone who listens to this because whenever it comes out I'm going to post it, Ashley is amazing, okay? So let me tell you. She was an investment banker, okay, big time, in New York. Then she quit, moved to Texas, got married, started a gym with her husband. Is it still two gyms? 

BIRD: No. We consolidated it to one gym. 

PHYLICIA: Consolidated to one. Started a gym. Now she's like a business strategist, slash consultant. Has three children, okay? I'm like, I have no idea how she has all these hats in her life. So that's why I'm like she's phenomenal. She reached out. I was like, of course, because you got your life together. Maybe you can help me get my life together.

BIRD: Thank you. Phylicia, you are too kind. It is all the grace of God. I don't know how we do with either, girl. It's lit over here. But again, I'm honestly so inspired by people like you. And it just makes me excited to be able to share this space with you. And I hope that all of my listeners connect with you soon. 

PHYLICIA: Yes, same here. Thank you. This was awesome. Thank you. 

BIRD: I mean… that girl. She is such a beautiful soul. I hope that you connect with Phylicia online and follow her work. Like I said, it is truly stunning. I'll be sure to link all of her information in the show notes of this episode. 

And I really want you to do something, I want you to think about the power of your pause. I really want to encourage you to really take some space this week to really think about what that could look like for you and what it could mean for your future. 

As always, thank you so much for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. Make sure that you subscribe on Apple Podcasts and follow us on Spotify. Also, tell every entrepreneur you know about this episode so that they can learn from Phylicia too. 

Talk to you next week.